[UnitList] Kingdom of Italy

Development/Testing Planning
#1

[size=150]All Italy work must be carried out in the S44Italians.sdd folder, NOT the trunk![/size]

[size=150]Infantry[/size]

Fanteria di Osservazione - Observation Infantry (Beretta)
Fuciliere Fanteria - Carcano Mod.91 Rifle Infantry
Fanteria Assalire - Beretta 1938A Assault Infantry
Fucile Mitragliatore Leggero Fanteria - Breda 30 LMG
Fucile Mitragliatore Fanteria - Breda M37 Heavy Machinegun
Fucile Anticarro - 20mm Solothurn Anti-Tank Rifle
Mortaio Leggero - Brixia Model 35 4.5cm Mortar (named one of the worst weapons ever to be accepted for service, bieng extremeny overcomplicated for the little effect. Do we really want that?)
Mortaio da 81/14 modello 35 - 81mm Mortar (nearly 100% identical to the US M1 mortar, both being copies of a French Brandt mortar)
Model 35 - Two Man Flamethrower (NEEDS REVIEW)
Cecchino Fanteria - Carcano Mod.91 Sniper Rifle

[size=150]Guns[/size]

Fiat 626 ([color=green]model) - Utility Truck
Cannone-Mitragliera da 20/65 modello 35 (Breda) ([color=green]model) - 20mm Anti-Aircraft Gun
Cannone da 47/32 M35 ([color=green]model) - 47mm Anti-Tank Gun
Cannone da 65/17 modello 13 ([color=green]model) - 65mm Infantry Gun
Cannone da 75/32 modello 37 ([color=green]model) - 75mm Field Gun
Obice da 100/22 ([color=green]model) - 100mm Medium Artillery
Obice da 105/14 modello 18 - 105mm Medium Artillery (too WW1-ish design)
Autocannone da 100/17 ([color=green]model) - Self-Propelled Howitzer
Obice da 149/19 modello 37 - 149mm Heavy Artillery
Obice da 210/22 - 210mm Heavy Artillery

[size=150]Light Vehicles[/size]

Protetto TL-37 ([color=green]model) - MG Scout Car/Tractor/APC
Autoblinda Lince - MG Scout Car
Autoblinda 41 ([color=green]model) - 20mm Armoured Car
Camionetta Sahariana AS42 ([color=green]model) - Long-Range Recon Car (1 x 8mm MG, 1 x 20mm AA gun), probably AA vehicle
The following two are way obsolete by 1944
Carro Veloce L3/35 - MG Tankette
Carro L6/40 - 20mm Light Tank (~230 Built)

[size=150]Medium (Tracked) Vehicles[/size]

Carro Medio M13/40 - 47mm Medium (Light) Tank (700 built '40-'41)
Carro Medio M14/41 - 47mm Medium (Light) Tank (700 built '41-'42)
Carro Medio M15/42 ([color=green]model) - 47mm Medium (Light) Tank (200+ built '41-'44)
Carro Pesanto P40/43 ([color=green]model) - 75mm Heavy (Medium) Tank (100 built '43-'44)

[size=150]Self-Propelled Guns[/size]

Semovente 47/32 ([color=green]model) - 47mm Light Assault Gun
Semovente 75/18 ([color=green]model) - 75mm Assault Gun
Semovente 75/46 - 75mm Tank Destroyer
Semovente 90/53 ([color=green]model) - 90mm Tank Destroyer (48 built '41)
Semovente 105/25 ([color=green]model) - 105mm Tank Destroyer

[size=150]Aircraft[/size]

IMAM Ro.37bis ([color=green]model) - Reconnaisance biplane
Macchi MC.202 Folgore - Light Fighter (2x7.7 mm, 2x12.7 mm) (weapons too light?)
Fiat G.55 Centauro - Fighter (heavy? 3x20 mm, 2x12.7 mm)
Fiat Cr.42 Falco ([color=green]model) - Ground attack aircraft (2x12.7 mm, bombs)
Reggiane Re.2005 Sagittario ([color=green]model) - Fighter-Bomber (or heavy fighter? 2x12.7 mm MG, 3x20mm guns)
Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 Sparviero ([color=green]model) - Medium Bomber
Fiat BR.20 Cicogna - Medium Bomber

[size=150]Ships[/size]

MAS-555 Torpedo Boat ([color=green]model) - torpedo boat (2x450mm torpedo, 1x20mm)
MS Type 2 Torpedo Boat ([color=green]model) - torpedo boat (2x533mm torp, 2x450mm torp, 4x20mm, 2x8mm), Italian copy of Schnellboot
MZ Landing Barge (Motozattera) ([color=green]model) - Italian copy of the MFP (1x76mm, 1x20mm)

Navigatory class ([color=green]model) - Heavy Destroyer (Leader) (6x120mm, 2x40mm, 4x13.2mm, 2x2x533mm torpedo)
Soldati class - Destroyer (4x120mm, 12x13.2mm, 2x3x533mm torpedo)
Ariete class - Escort Destroyer (2x100mm, 10x20mm, 2x3x450mm torpedo) (only 1 used by Italy, Germans got the rest)
Orsa class ([color=green]model) - Escort Destroyer (2x100mm, 4x37mm, 4x13.2mm, 2x2x450mm torpedo)
Аре class - Corvette (1x100mm, 7x20mm, 2x450mm torpedo)

Italian naval doctrine put speed and weapon range as the most important qualities of a ship, if even at the cost of protection. As a result, Italian ships were fast and tended to have weapons of smaller calibres but longer effective ranges than other navies.

#2

[size=150]Tanks[/size]

Carro Armato P 40 - medium tank, 75mm gun and 2x8mm MG. Weapons and armor comparable to T-34/76 (sadly not to the T-34/85 or the Panther)
M15/42 - light tanks. 47mm gun, 4 MGs.

[size=150]Assault guns/Tank destroyers[/size]

Semovente 75/34 - assault gun, based on the M15/42 shassis. Weapons: 75mm/34 gun
Semovente 90/53 - tank destroyer on the M14/41 shassis. 90mm/53 gun, powerful enough to knock out most any tank.

[size=150]Armored cars[/size]

Autoblinda Lince - scout armored car. A copy of British Daimler Dingo. Weapons: 8mm MG.
Autoblinda 41 - armored car. Weapons: 20 mm Breda 35 autocannon, 2x8mm MG.

P40 was designated a heavy tank by the Italians themselves, while M15 was medium. However, it could only be compared to light tanks of other nations.
A characteristic feature of M Italian tank series are the twin hull MGs. Machinegun config is as follows: 2 in the hull (twin), 1 coaxial, 1 AA (on top of the turret).
Semovente proved to be a good vehicle, generally comparable to German StuG, despite being built on a base of at best mediocre tank.

#3

IIRC only a couple dozen of the Semovente 75mm were built, and most of the P40s built never saw service with Italian forces – by the time it began reaching units in the field Italy capitulated and most of those built were taken and used by the Wehrmacht. However I don’t think thats a problem.

#4

There were 2 types of Semovente with 75mm guns, 75/18 being well-known for an example of a good vehicle made out of 2 mediocre designs (M13/40 and 75mm/18 mountain gun). 75/34 was a later model, with better gun, and 192 of that were built before Italian surrender (also 262 of 75/18 were built). Doesn’t seem to be a rare vehicle by Italian standards :slight_smile:

#5

[size=150]Towed artillery[/size]

Cannone da 47/32 M35 - 47mm light anti-tank weapon. Could be equipped with HEAT rounds to be effective against newer armor.
Cannone da 65/17 modello 13 - 65mm infantry gun. Slightly weaker than other inf guns, but also lighter and simpler.
Cannone da 75/32 modello 37 - 75mm field artillery, also usable as anti-tank to some extent (a-la ZiS-3).
Obice da 105/14 modello 18 - 105mm howitzer, of WW1 design
Obice da 149/19 modello 37 - 149mm heavy howitzer
Obice da 210/22 - 210mm heavy artillery

[size=150]AA Artillery[/size]

Cannone-Mitragliera da 20/65 modello 35 (Breda) - 20mm light AA gun
Cannone da 90/53 - 90mm heavy AA. Generally comparable to the ‘88’, incl. anti-tank usage.

[size=150]Artillery tractors[/size]
Fiat 626 - transport truck

[size=150]Aircraft[/size]

Fiat G.55 Centauro - fighter
Reggiane Re.2005 Sagittario - fighter-bomber
Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 Sparviero - 3-engined medium bomber
Fiat BR.20 Cicogna - 2-engine medium bomber
I have some observation planes in mind, but I cannot find good drawings for them, so I’m not sure what should be the Italian scout plane.

#6

Alright, modified the first post, made some changes:

Added L3/35 and L6/40 light tanks; struck out Autoblinda Lince as it was produced only by the post-Mussolini Italian Republic after they surrendered and joined the Allies; changed Carro Armata (Tank, Armed) to Carro Pesento (Tank, Heavy); added M15/42 light tank (Italy classified it as medium) and Semovente 47/32; changed 75/34 to 75/18 as the /18 was much, much more common, and added the 75/46 as the tank destroyer version.

#7

I don’t see much use for the Semovente 47. Too weak a gun, even the ‘medium’ (aka light) M15 has the same. That would only be able to fight light vehs (up to something like T-70), and 47mm gun isn’t that great vs unarmored targets.

#8

Well, here’s the idea I had for the Italians, in terms of which vehicles could go where, and possible uses for them. Also, the above list is more throwing out possible vehicles, striking out those that may not be usable, etc.

Anyway:

Vehicle Yard
Fiat 626 Transport Truck
Protetto TL-37 APC
Autoblinda 41
Semovente 47/32
Semovente 75/18

Tank Yard (Tier 1)
Carro L6/40
Carro Medio M14/41
Semovente 75/46

Tank Yard (Tier 2)
Carro Pesanto P40/43
Semovente 90/53
Semovente 105/25

From the looks of it it appears Italian AFVs will primarily be turretless types. The vast majority of them are completely worthless with a couple of exceptions. The Semovente 75/18 will make for an OK support vehicle akin to the Su-76 or M8 Scott. The M14/41 tank would be on-par with the Panzer III, T-70 and Stuarts. The Semovente 75/46 would make an OK tank destroyer, probably similar to the StuG III. The P40 from what I’ve heard is roughly on-par with the Sherman and T-34-76. The 90mm and 105mm Semoventes seem like they’d actually be somewhat decent. It’ll definately be difficult balancing them so that they don’t crumble from the late-tier weaponry of other factions but I think they’ll be roughly even in the early game.

#9

M series tanks had rotating turrets. M11 had weapon layout somewhat similar to US M3-medium - main gun was in the hull, turret only contained the MGs. Later designs moved the gun to the turret, and placed a twin MG in the hull (and 2 more remained in the turret - one coax and one AA on top). That should mean quite a powerful infantry-killing vehicle for a light tank.
Fun thing about Italian tanks is that Italians had apparently not mastered welding, so their wehicles were riveted. Should look very unique, and very unlike other nations.
The 105 Semovente was an assault gun in the sence it was only capable of direct fire. Considerable mass of a 105mm shell means it had some anti-armor capability, though it wasn’t built for that role.
The 90mm Semovente was a dedicated tank killer. It’s built somewhat like a Marder, only with a much more powerful gun.
90mm Breda AA gun was also mounted on open unarmored trucks, but those vehicles seem more like a heavy AA than a tank hunter.
I can model most of those quite easily since I have a scan of a book on Italian AFVs. Planes are also easy to find references for, the arty will probably be the most difficult in that regard. Should probably start with the truck.
Finding some ships for the Italians won’t be hard either. Italy was a bigger naval power than Germany, their ships are well documented. Out of my head I can name MAS boats (torpedo boat) and some landing craft modelled after German MFP (very much the same boat, but with different weapons), a quick google should result in much more.

#10

[size=150]Ships[/size]

Combatants

Navigatory class - destroyer leader (6x120mm, 2x40mm, 4x13.2mm, 2x2x533mm torpedo)

  • or -
    Soldati class - destroyer (4x120mm, 12x13.2mm, 2x3x533mm torpedo)
    Ariete class - escort destroyer (2x100mm, 10x20mm, 2x3x450mm torpedo)
    Аре class - corvette (1x100mm, 7x20mm, 2x450mm torpedo)

MAS-555 torpedo boat - torpedo boat (2x450mm torpedo, 1x20mm)
MS type 2 torpedo boat - torpedo boat (2x533mm torp, 2x450mm torp, 4x20mm, 2x8mm)

Transports
MZ self-propelled landing barge - Italian copy of the MFP (1x76mm, 1x20mm)

Navigatory destroyers were actually pre-ww2 (1929), but that’s the class I have a reference drawing for. Ariete, on the other hand, was newest of the new - first launched in 1943. Soldati is 1939, abd the drawing is of lower-than-average quality, but still usable.
Some small warships are still needed, as well as some kind of light transports.
Italians are also well known for the use of exotic naval weapons, such as manned torpedoes :open_mouth:, minisubs and frogmen. Maybe some of those could be considered, too…

#11

I feel that perhaps we should focus on the navies and aircraft of the four sides already mostly done first? >_>

#12

I do units for which the drawings are available. So far I’ve modeled all I could find for the 4 already done sides (with T1 navies being complete for all, btw, and T2 mostly complete and certainly operable in the current state). More drawings = more models. As it is, I cannot do more models for those.
Drawings for Italians, otoh, are easy to find (in fact I already found most/all of their armored vehicles, aircraft and ships mentioned in that thread, and all of that took like 2 hours combined), so…
Btw. Here’s an archive with some 4-view drawings of Italian vehicles (the ones I see as more likely to remain there, most of the rest can be found there). Just in case anyone wants to do some models without conflicting with existing sides. Pics are b/w gifs, should be good for inserting into whatever 3D editor for modeling (works quite good for me with AutoCAD). AS37 is not needed by itself, but it looks very much like the S37 and contains much more detail (front/top view for a start) than the S37 drawing, so can be used to model S37.

#13

Yeah, I mean, it’s not like Yuri has much to do, he’s a fucking machine and has pretty much modelled everything we’ll ever need up to this point and has little else to do. Unless you can think of something more pressing for Yuri to model, Nemo. :stuck_out_tongue:

#14

I think the 105/25 will be one of Italy’s most powerful vehicles, similar to the ISU-152 except obviously much less powerful, however it was fully enclosed and had up to 75mm armour, and with its 105mm gun should prove quite a threat to medium tanks (that large a caliber, even in pure HE form let alone HEAT, is probably capable of knocking out most medium tanks in 1 hit) and a fairly good assault gun. The 90/53, like you said, paper armour and open fighting compartment will make it very vulnerable to light vehicles but it’ll be fairly powerful, but not quite as powerful as 88mm; it has lower muzzle velocity (~800mps compared to 1000 for 88mm L/48). Can’t really find any credible sources for its performance though.

#15

The 20mm anti-tank rifle should probably be a deployable weapon, akin to a heavy machinegun. It then will be able to fire 10 rounds in semi-auto mode, and then have a pause to replace the clip.

The rifle has a bipod at the front and a single support near the buttplate.

#16

I almost feel like we’d have to do the same with the PTRD just to keep consistency… dunno though. It could just fire like the PTRD.

#17

The PTRD seems lighter and more mobile. Solothurn should be more suited for ambushing, deployed version can still be cloackable and will have a better RoF than PTRD because of relatively high clip capacity (but will take time to deploy/undeploy and could not be fired w/o deploying).

#18

There are some drawings/blueprints/photos of different Italian guns. Just in case someone (other than me) decides to model them. I will do them myself if no one volunteers, of course.
There are some pieces we don’t have planned, and some of the planned ones are lacking, but still there are enough references in this archive for at least 5-6 of the planned guns.

Another source of references: link

Yet another source (look for Italian units at the sidebar): Afrikakorps

#19

I’d use at least these three formations, without which the Italian side could not be complete

The Bersaglieri are probably the best known Italian soldiers. They are very mobile and aggressive infantry. They can only be seen running. A bersagliere has become a way to describe someone in a rush. They wear a distinctive hat with big black feathers. Nearly every Italian can recognize their fanfare, which is, of course, played on the run.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bersaglieri
it.youtube.com/watch?v=c0kBETseDmQ

The Alpini are famous corps as well. They are soldiers from the alps specialized in mountain warfare. They, too, wear a recognizeable hat.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpini

The Carabineri are one of the branchers of the Italian armed forces. Although nowadays they most of their personnel is police, they still have combat units. They fought in Africa and the Balkans in WWII.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabinieri
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabinieri_Regiment_“Tuscania”

#20

Now that sounds like a second tier for the Barracks. So regular inf will be quite average (worse than Germans at least), and advanced inf like Bersaglieri/Alpini will be elite. A unique feature, no other side has a tiered infantry as of yet.