Release Goals (Beta 0.3) Discussion (old)

We need to decide exactly how we are going to deal with limiting airfields, and make sure it’s feasible.

Still unsure about this.

Their size and a hard limit :smiling_imp:?

In most cases its HQ->Barracks->Gun Yard or Vehicle Yard

I think I talked with someone at some point, it would be cool to utilize morphing. Gun Yards morphing into Heavy Gun Yards, Tank Yards morphing into Heavy Tank Yards, etc, all of which keep the original build options and add more.

Cut SU-85. in the tradition of tank destroyers, the SU-100 should serve as “poor man’s IS-2” just like Jagdpanzer IV is “poor man’s Tiger” and Jagdpanther is “poor man’s Tiger II”. Combine the destructive power of a heavy vehicle with a lighter vehicle with limited tactical ability for cheaper cost.

Then we can drop the Sherman, but tbh, it would be NICE to give it the same kind of importance as say the Cromwell 95mm CS. A close support tank with a huge gun that doesnt have indirect fire (long range) ability. But we also have the Jumbo, which is a tradeoff for heavier armour for close support. I’d prefer dropping the Jumbo but it is too “iconic”.

Tank death FX aren’t really an important issue. Rather we should work on general FX (weapon explosions are good and done, now we need cool unit death explosions) and that’s about it.

Navies too need some help as well as a dynamic for their usage. A light and heavy naval yard?

I’ll start figuring out Naval balance pre-implementation if you wish. It’s going to be one of the most… odd sectors… of the game, as far as I can see.

No, cut SU-100, if we need to cut one.

(Production, time of introduction, effect/usage during the war, etc.)

Gameplay trumps your silly statistics!

Namely, there will be loads of T-34-85s (or they’ll at least be available) and since those aren’t that expensive, having a cheaper version with less armor seems a mite silly.

Navies: maybe we should bring the navy unit list from the old forum here? There were quite a few ships listed, and with the ability to edit posts (which the old forum for some reason lacked) those lists can be kept up to date (I wanted to make some changes to USSR list for example, but couldn’t edit it).
A few Soviet and German naval units are modelled btw. The question of which unit can build the shipyards remains though (which of our con units should be able to enter deep water?)

Problem with cutting SU-100 is it effectively makes the IS-2 and ISU-152 the only things capable of scratching Tiger II and having good ability to kill Tiger/Panther etc. The 85mm is not that astonishing. Soviets need a heavy-hitting medium-sized tank destroyer like the Jagdpanther, M36 Jackson, etc.

Blah Blah assymetric balance etc.

Stfu, barely more 85’s were built, and even Soviets themselves realized with the number of T-34-85’s being fielded there was no use for an 85mm tank destroyer so production was stopped in favour of the SU-100. From September 1944 to the end of the war over 2,000 SU-100 were produced and they most likely would have statistically outnumbered SU-85’s from late 1944 onwards.

*December, not september. Didn’t see action until January.

Anyway, I’ll back down. Would like to hear Yuri’s opinion on the matter though.

(An alternative is to have morphing factories that have T-34/76 & SU-85 to start then T-34/85 & SU-100 when upgraded… Likewise for PzIV/JgdPzIV/TigerI & Panther/Jagdpanther/TigerII)

For now I think we should leave both SU-85 and SU-100 in. We need a public release, then we’ll see which one gets built more in real games and can drop the rebundant unit (if any). If their costs will differ considerably, they will both have a place.
Morphing tank yard idea sound good btw. Then SU-85 will just be ‘lower tier’ unit and will get replaced by the 100 once it’s available (yard morph time should be quite long for this to really work so that advanced units aren’t available early).
Yet another way to make both useful: they are very much alike except for the gun, so their HP shouldn’t differ a lot. And 85mm gun isn’t weak either. So, if the enemy only makes medium tanks (no Tiger II and such), 85 would be the preferred unit - it should be somewhat faster to produce so there will be more of it, and the power of 100 isn’t really needed in such a scenario. Will the US even have a tank worthy of 100mm shell? Jumbo maybe?

The issue is that including units that are intentionally replaced by other units is a waste of spiked’s skinning time. I’ve been trying to avoid having units that simply never get built once a higher-tier unit is available, since it means that one or the other isn’t properly balanced. The issue with trying to balance a situation like that (especially where the SU-85 will be able to take on any tank, if you have -enough- of them) is because you have to get it perfectly right; keep the cost of the SU-85 low enough that its still useful despite limited gun, but not so low that its more effective to just build lots of SU-85s, ect, ect.

I’m in favor of the opposite approach: start with fewer units, and if game experience shows that there is a need for a unit in that role/place, then we add it in.

Only problem is, it is probably harder to determine whether a unit is NEEDED than if a unit is NOT needed.

When a unit is NOT needed it is painfully obvious; the unit will simply never be built in any games with semi-experienced players. Then we can say “whoopsiedoodle” and toss it.

But how do you tell if a unit is NEEDED? There are so many factors to balancing that any instance where it may be needed is more likely to be looked at from the point of view of what balancing changes can be made to an already-existing unit to try and fix the balance problem; ie, making the SU-85 increasingly cheaper and more available, or anti-tank guns or troops more available, so on and so forth.

I still maintain that in terms of need it’s painfully obvious Su-100 is more necessary. But I wouldnt say Su-85 isn’t. The StuG III has managed to stay in despite having the same gun and very similar armour to the Panzer IV. And ontop of it, the Germans will have the Jagdpanzer IV and Jagdpanther.

From another point of view, as I said, without the 100m gun the Soviets will find it very hard to deal with heavy armour without producing their own; 85mm won’t scratch Tiger II’s, leaving the IS-2 and ISU-152 the only practical counters, both of which are significantly (or should be) more expensive, costly and more unavailable than the Su-100 would be.

So I still say either both, or the SU-100 stays.

Well, yeah. it is more difficult. So I suppose what would make the -most- sense would be to plug them both in unskinned for now, so we can determine if its actually balanceable. The problem here is getting more people playing test games, and then getting feedback from them when they do play.

And the StuG/PzrIV difference is a hairy one, BUT is helped by the fact that we did not give the StuG a MG. Thus its only really useful for support against enemy armor and bases, while a IV can take out inf and is generally more flexible (although with less armor).

And with the addition of self-propelled yards, the StuG III will be seperated from the tanks. Perhaps doing the same would help the SU-85. After looking at the build list, the Soviet SP yard COULD benefit from the SU-85… otherwise all they’ve got is SU-100, SU-122, and ISU-152…

If there was some sort of… curve that leveled off to marginal gains for time beyond a certain point, I could see it working well.

It stops increasing after 2x the starting value, which takes about 5 minutes to reach (I think. I’d have to check).

A suggestion;

New load screens. Possibly a total replacement, as many of them are woefully outdated.

Nemo.

This shitstorm began in 2001, not 2002, as a clusterfuck idea between myself and “Skywalker”, and then joined by Oasis.

Originally Skywalker was main lead, but he had silly ambitions and no skill, thinking we could sell the shit for profit.

He disappeared and Oasis and I manned up and took the lead, later hesitantly joined by FLOZi who was interested in a Cold War design along the same lines. Eventually by the time Spring rolled around with its growing popularity he decided to come full-throttle, sacrificed his own personal ambitions for Soviet vs. NATO glory and… stuff.