Proposed unit lists. Germany is pretty much hammered out (I think?) and US as well to an extent. Brits and soviets still very much undecided, but nothing for any nation is fixed yet - as far as I’m concerned, nothing is untouchable yet.


Sturmboot 39 – Cheap, weak water transport (transport ~10 inf) – GERSturmboot39 (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

Schwere Sturmboot – Light Assault Infantry landing craft (1x20mm, transport ~30 inf) – GERSchSturmboot (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

Siebel Fahre – Light Assault Heavy Equipment landing craft (3×20mm, transport 1 tank) – GERSiebelFahre (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

Minenraumboot “R-Boot” – Minesweeper/light gunboat (1×37mm AA, 3×20mm AA ) – GERRBoot (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

Schnellboot 1939/1940 – Fast Attack/Torpedo boat/Minelayer (2-6×30mm, 2×20mm, 2 x Torpedo Launchers, Mines) – GERSchnellboot (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

Vorpostenboot – Main Line Patrol/Interception craft (2×105mm, 2×37mm, 1-9×20mm, Depth Charges ) – GERVPboot (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

Artilleriefahrprahm – Slow/Shallow Draft direct land support craft
(2×88mm, 8×20mm) – GERAFPrahm (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

Marinefahrprahm – Heavy Assault Transport (1×75mm gun, 3×20mm AA, transport 200 infantry or 3-4 tanks) – GERMFPrahm (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

Type 1939 Flottentorpedoboot – Heavily armed cruiser: low armor, short range; (5×105mm guns, 4×37mm AA, 2-9×20mm AA, 6 x Torpedo Launchers) – GERFlottenTorpBoot (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

Type 1934 A Destroyer – Heavily armed/armored destroyer (5×127mm 5-inch guns, 2×37mm AA guns, 3×20mm AA guns, 2 x Torpedo Launchers) – GERType1934 (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)


Rubber Dingy - Light River-crossing infantry transport - USRubberDingy (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

Pontoon Raft
- Light River-crossing vehicle transport - USPontoonRaft (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

LCVP - Infantry Assault Landing Craft (2 x .30 cal MG) - USLCVP (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

PT-103 “Elco” Patrol Torpedo Boat
(1 x 20mm, 2 x twin .50 cal MG)- Light Patrol/Torpedo Boat - USPT103 (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

PT-200 “Higgins” Patrol Torpedo Boat
- Heavy Patrol/Torpedo Boat (1 x 40mm, 1 x 20mm) - USPT200 (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

LCT - Tank Landing Craft (2 x 20mm) - USLCT (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

LCI - Large Infantry Landing Craft (~200) (4 x 20mm) - USLCI (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

LCS(L) - Landing Support Craft
(1 x 3-inch, 4 x 40mm, 4 x 20mm, 4 x .50 cal, 10 x 5-inch rockets) - USLCS (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

PCE-842 - Patrol Ship
(1 x 3-inch, 3 x 40mm, 5 x 20mm, Mines) - USPCE842 (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

Buckley-Class Destroyer Escort/Frigate (3 x 3-inch, 2 x 40mm, 8 x 20mm, Torpedoes) - Light Frigate - USBuckley (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

John C. Butler-Class Destroyer Escort/Frigate
- Heavily-armed Frigate (2 x 5-inch, 4 x 40mm, 10 x 20mm, Torpedoes) - USJohnCButler (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

Fletcher-Class Destroyer - Destroyer (5 x 5-inch, 6 x 40mm, 10 x 20mm, Torpedoes) - USFletcher (Model, UV, Texture, Script, FBI, Balance)

[size=85]US Navy ships were a lot different than German ships, I’ve found out. Whereas the USN had the obvious advantage in large-size ships (battleships, cruisers, Destroyers), when you start getting to frigate/corvette and smaller-sized ships, they’re actually quite weak. Compare the Higgens and Elco PT Boats with their German counterpart, the S-Boot; the S-Boot has multiple high-caliber automatic weapons whereas the Elco has only a single 20mm and the Higgens an additional 40mm. The Germans also have the R-Boat which fits a nice role as a light patrol ship. After the PT Boats, the next smallest ship is the comparitively large PCE (essentially a Corvette) which, although large, has somewhat shitty weaponry (a 3-inch (76mm) gun; compare this with the two 88mm guns on the Vorposten). US “Destroyer Escorts” (which everyone else calls Frigates) are also rather weak when compared to German Flottentorpedoboots. The LCI is also outgunned by its counterpart (the MFP, with its 75mm gun), but the LCS(L) probably outperforms the AFP, with its battery of 5-inch rockets, which will do quite a bit of damage to enything close by.

Also, the PT 103 Boat w/ rockets is something talked about on Wiki but I cant find any other info for it; it seems like it might help with the US Navy’s light firepower but it may be unecessary.[/size]


Storm/Assault Boat - Wood and Canvas folding boat (12 troops)

Vosper MTB Type I - Light Fast Attack Torpedo Boat (2x 20mm, 8x 8mm MG, 4x 18in TT)

Fairmile D - Motor Torpedo/Gun Boat (2x Autoloaded 57mm, 2x 20mm AA, 8x 8mm MG, 4x 18in TT or 2x 21in TT)

Bangor Class Minesweeper - Minesweeper (1x 76mm, 1x 2pdr AA)

Flower Class Corvette - (1x 102mm, 1x 2pdr AA, 2x 20mm AA, 1x Hedgehog, DC)

River Class Frigate - (2x 102mm DP, 10x 20mm AA, 1x Hedgehog, DC)

Modified Black Swan Class Sloop - (6x 102mm DP, 12x 20mm AA, 1x Hedgehog, DC)

Hunt Class Escort Destroyer - (4 or 6x 102mm DP, 16x 2pdr AA, 2x 20mm AA, DC)

Q - Z Class Destroyer - (4x 120mm, 4x 40mm AA, 6x 20mm AA, 8x 21inTT, DC)

Landing Craft Assault - Infantry Assault Landing Craft (36 troops, 1x Bren)

Landing Craft Mechanized - Vehicle Landing Craft (Upto 1x medium tank) (Probably not needed)

Landing Craft Tank Mk IV - Tank Landing Craft (9 medium tanks or 6 churchills) (Compare to LCT(5) of US which carries 5 mediums. Brits used them too but only 172 lend leased compared to over 900 British built LCT(4))

LCI(L) - Large Infantry Landing Craft (~200 troops, 4 x 20mm)

[size=150]USSR - yuri, edit this as needed[/size]

PG-117 speedboat - light transport/patrol craft (1 7.62 Maxim MG, capacity for 5 infantry). Already modelled.

We need 1 torpedo boat. D-3 was much more numerous (73 units), while Komsomolets was more modern, but less common (32 units). And there also were G-5 boats numbering as many as 321 units, maybe I should do those instead?

D-3 torpedo boat 2x533mm torpedo tubes, 2x12.7mm MG, depth charges. 32t. 48knots. L: 21.6m, W:3.9m, Draft: 1.35m. Drawings: This boat is a pre-war design, mostly wooden.

Komsomolets torpedo boat 2x450mm tubes, 2x2x12.7mm MG (later replaced by 2x2x20mm ShVAK guns). 23t, 48knots (2x1200 hp engines), length: 18.7m, width: 3.4m. This boat is a new, 1944 design. Aluminium hull.

BKA-1125 Armored boat - small river gunboat (T-34/76 turret with 76.2mm gun, 3 turrets with 12.7mm MG each). Smaller version of 1124. Modelled.

MBK sea-going armored boat 2xT-34/76 turrets, 2x45mm guns, 1x37mm AA gun, 2x12.7mm MG. Later 45mm guns were removed and 1 more AA MG mount added, tank turrets replaced by naval 76mm gun turrets, but that happened post-war. … nlodka.htm

MO-4 submarine hunter boat - patrol and escort craft. 2x45mm gun, 2x12.7mm MG, depth charges. 56t, length: 27m, max. width: 4.2m, speed: 30 knots (power: 3000 hp)

BMO armored submarine hunter - patrol/escort craft. 1x45mm gun, 1x37mm AA gun, 2x2x12.7mm MG. 2 depth charge launchers. Can lay mines (10 mines). 62t. Speed: 22knots main engine, 6 knots reserve engine (if main is damaged). Length: 24.7m, width: 4.2m, draft: 1.1m.

‘Tral’ class minesweeper - minesweeper/escort craft. 1x100mm gun (front), 1x45mm gun (rear), 3x37mm AA gun, 2x12.7mm AA MG. Minesweeping equipment. 18 knots. 450t. Length: 62m, width: 7m, draft: 2.2m.

Pr. 43 border guard ship - patrol/escort ship. 1x102mm gun, 3x37mm AA gun, 2x12.7mm AA MG, depth charges. 600t. Speed: 16.8knots. Length: 67.5m Width: 7.3m Draft: 2.2m. Drawing: Mostly equal to a Vorpostenboot, but not built for fishing :slight_smile: Actually it’s a modified BTSch-type minesweeper. This is a NKVD ship (as Border Guards were NKVD troops, not regular Army or Navy), but during war those ships served with the Navy.

Also, numerous US built lend-leased PT Boats, but those were used on the Pacific so had no encounters with German ships.

Heavy ships

[size=85]Because of a number of reasons, Soviet capital ships spent most of the war in ports, so an action involving something larger than a destroyer would be something exceptional.[/size]

Zhelezniakov class monitor - river monitor (1 turret with 2x102mm, 3 x 45mm AA mounts, 2 x 37mm AA guns, 3 x 12.7mm MG turrets). Designed and built during 1930s, so still quite modern by the WW2 time.
This one (actually there were 6 of them, but only 1 survived the war) was used on the Black Sea and surrounding rivers.

Novik class destroyer 2-5 x 102mm guns (varies), 8-9 torpedo tubes grouped into 3-4 launchers (varies), various AA weapons (varies). A part of large destroyer series built during and after WW1 (some ideas taken from British destroyers), many were still in service during WW2.
Were remarkable for their high speed during WW1, but by WW2 that was nothing exceptional.
Ships of that type had quite a different armament (because of focus shifting from artillery to torpedoes and then back a few times during their construction), and were upgraded several times before WW2.
This one is probably obsolete for inclusion? No more than 5 of that type survived the war, most others were sunk in 1941-1942.

Smerch class heavy monitor - heavy river monitor (4 turrets with 2x120mm each, 2x37mm AA guns, 5x12.7mm AA MGs). Heavy armor (for such a small ship). Those ships were from pre-WW1 era and still weren’t surpassed by anything in their class by WW2.
Not used in Europe though, all of them were on the Pacific (Amur river flotilla), so I’m not sure they should be in.

Destroyer ‘Project 7U’ class 2x3-tube 533mm torpedo launchers, 4x130mm gun (4 single-gun turrets), 2x76mm universal gun (2 signle-gun mounts) - can fire AA, 7x37mm AA gun, 8x12.7mm AA MG. 37knots, length: 112.8m, width: 11m, draft: 4m. Drawings here:
Used on all theaters (except Pacific).

Destroyer leaders - those can even pass for light cruisers, but they were called destroyer leaders. Also known as ‘super-destroyers’. Aren’t those a little too out of scale?

Destroyer leader ‘Tashkent’ (ship built in Italy for the USSR, all weapon systems are USSR built) - ‘super-destroyer’. 2893t, length: 139.8m, width: 13.7m, draft: 4m, speed: 43.5 knots, power: 130000 hp (!!!). Weapons: 6x130mm gun (3x2-gun turrets), 6x37mm AA gun, 6x12.7mm AA MG, 3 x 3-tube 533mm torpedo launchers, 2 depth charge launchers, 1x2-gun 76mm AA turret (installed in 1941). The ship was described as having insufficient AA weaponry for the size though. Nicknamed ‘the blue cruiser’. Intended for high-seas fleet action (which it never seen). Only 1 ship built. Used on the Black Sea.

Destroyer leader ‘Project 38’ class - fully USSR built ships. Weapons: 5 x single-gun 130mm turrets, 2x76mm signle-gun turrets, 5 x 45mm gun mounts, 4x12.7mm MG, 2x4-tube 533mm torpedo launchers. Speed: 41.2knots max, 25 knots avg. 2260t, length: 127.5m, width: 11.7m, draft: 3.59m.
Used on Baltic and Arctic.

Type M submarine, XII series - a small submarine, designed such that it could be transported by rail (important feature considering vast Soviet spaces and the distance between naval theaters). Weapons: 2 x torpedo tubes (no spare torpedoes, so 2 shots only and then go back to base for rearming), 1 x 45mm deck gun. Speed: 8 knots submerged, 14 knots surface. Displacement: 258t. Length: 44.5m. Used on all theaters. (some of the info seems to be lost in translation though, Russian sources describe them a bit differently)

Transport ships

Tenders - those were built in beseiged Leningrad mainly to ferry supplies across Ladoga lake, although landings were considered, too (so they received some armour). After the siege was lifted, the ships were used on Baltic Sea, Black Sea and various rivers, including those in Germany itself (when Red Army reached there). They are rather slow, but their small size makes them a hard target for aircraft - out of 117 units in use on Ladoga, none were lost despite numerous air raids. The are powered by ZiS-5 engine and have a very simplistic design so they can be mass-produced quickly and cheaply when needed.
15-ton tender - small transport ship, partially armoured, armed with 12.7mm DShK. Can carry 25 soldiers. Speed: 5 knots. Modelled.
25-ton tender - almost the same, only larger. Can carry up to 60 soldiers. Modelled.

Both the US and USSR lists need to be pruned.


Vosper MTB Type I - Light Fast Attack Torpedo Boat (2x 20mm, 8x 8mm MG, 4x 18in TT)

Fairmile D - Motor Torpedo/Gun Boat (2x Autoloaded 57mm, 2x 20mm AA, 8x 8mm MG, 4x 18in TT or 2x 21in TT)

Bangor Class Minesweeper - Minesweeper (1x 76mm, 1x 2pdr AA)

Flower Class Corvette - (1x 102mm, 1x 2pdr AA, 2x 20mm AA, 1x Hedgehog, DC)

River Class Frigate - (2x 102mm DP, 10x 20mm AA, 1x Hedgehog, DC)

Modified Black Swan Class Sloop - (6x 102mm DP, 12x 20mm AA, 1x Hedgehog, DC)

Hunt Class Escort Destroyer - (4 or 6x 114mm DP, 16x 2pdr AA, 2x 20mm AA, DC)

Q - Z Class Destroyer - (4x 120mm, 4x 40mm AA, 6x 20mm AA, 8x 21inTT, DC)

Landing Craft Assault - Infantry Assault Landing Craft (36 troops, 1x Bren)

Landing Craft Mechanized - Vehicle Landing Craft (Upto 1x medium tank) (Probably not needed)

Landing Craft Tank Mk IV - Tank Landing Craft (9 medium tanks or 6 churchills) (Compare to LCT(5) of US which carries 5 mediums. Brits used them too but only 172 lend leased compared to over 900 British built LCT(4))

LCI(L) - Large Infantry Landing Craft (~200 troops, 4 x 20mm)

Alternatively the later Ca/Ch/Co/Cr Class Destroyers could be used (4x 114mm DP, 4x 40mm AA, + 4x 40mm AA or 8x 20mm AA, 10x 21in TT, DC), the 114mm gun whilst smaller than the 120mm was actually considerably more modern and effective. Need some work on the roles - most RN ships were primarily for Anti-Submarine work in the Battle of the Atlantic, not much use for us, and possibly cutting out one of the big 3 ships.

How many ships per side is acceptable? I see some rebundant units in USSR list (quite a few actually), but I need to know a unit count to aim at.

Between 8-12, I’d say. It’s not so much about having a certain number as making sure that they each have a distinct gameplay role to fill.

There’s no specific number, but I can tell you by role…

Realistically, one or two “capital-sized” (ie Destroyer-sized) ships should be enough. For instance, Germany has the Type 1936 or whatever it is, and the Torpedoboot; the Destoyer is your average-sized with 5 x 5-inch guns which makes up about the standard armament for destroyers. The Torpedoboot is somewhat smaller with fewer/lower caliber guns and serves as a sort of “Cruiser” to the Destroyer’s “battleship” role.

Underneath that we need some light-weight combat ships; for instance, the Vorposten, a sea-going vessel with the capability of duelling with larger ships and especially with smaller ships (where its smaller guns are put to better use tracking faster-moving targets at closer ranges). The US has Destroyer Escorts for this task. One or two is acceptable.

Next are heavy and light patrolcraft; the R-Boot, with several high-caliber automatic guns such as 40mm, 37mm, 30mm and 20mm, which are pretty damned good at taking out any light vessels. One or two, as long as their roles are quite clearly defined.

Then there are the “Torpedo Boats” proper, such as the S-Boot, PT Boats, etc., which are both patrol boats with the armament to take on other similar-sized vessels (as well as landing craft and other soft targets) as well as heavy-hitting torpedos about to do damage to even the largest ships.

Underneath that, of course, are the transportation ships; we need a transport ship capable of carrying dozens of infantry (ie the LCI) and one capable of carrying several tanks (ie the LCT), both of which are mid-sized and have defensive armament. underneath those of course are the infantry and vehicle assault craft; capable of landing infantry and tanks directly onto fortified shores where they can go immediately into battle.

Ontop of this basic list are more “specialized” craft. Because of our scale, river “stuff” is going to play a large part in the game and as such we need a way to differentiate between sea-going ships and coastal/river ships. We’ll do this mainly by speed and maxdepth tweaking. The MFP and AFP barges for instance will have very shallow drafts which will allow them to come a lot closer to land than larger ships which will have very large drafts. Their speed will be slower, making them less usable as sea-going ships. The AFP inparticular shares many aspects with the Vorpostenboot; both have similar armament, but the AFP should be much slower and able to move much closer to land, while the Vorp will be faster and unable to go into shallow water. This will hopefully be enough to differentiate the two types.

Then of course there are the river transport craft, the Dingy and the vehicle raft. These are essentially completely unarmoured and helpless little things that are only really made for letting things cross small rivers (since we can’t build bridges). The Dingy inparticular will be very susceptible to small-arms so they should not be used in assaults; that should be for LCVPs and LCAs, which have armour protection against smallarms and defensive armament. Sturmboot 39 will be used as Germany’s “dingy” and there is a version of a raft platform boat thingy which they used to carry vehicles across water spans, which I’ll find more information about and then make a unit for (I believe it was the Siebal Fahr?), just so they can look a little different. Soviets can use the PG-117 obviously but they’ll need something to replace the vehicle raft – or if they used US lend-lease rafts in that way they can keep that.

After going over Yuri’s list I would propose the following:

Project 7U-class Destroyer - 4 x 130mm guns, 2 x 76mm guns, 7 x 37mm guns, Torpedoes
Zhelezniakov-class River Monitor - 2 x 102mm guns, 3 x 45mm guns, 2 x 37mm guns, shallow draft
Border Guard Ship - 102mm gun, 3 x 37mm guns
MKL Gunboat - 2 x 76mm, 2 x 45mm
Komsomolets Torpedo Boat - Torpedoes, 2 x 20mm
BKA-1125 River Gunboat - 76mm gun, 2 x 12.7mm MG
PG-117 Light River transport - MG


Something capable of transporting several dozen infantry (ie 50-100, for use in maps which require the transportation of large number of infantry over large distances, ie American LCI or German MFP, with defensive armament)
Something capable of transporting several tanks (up to 5, with defensive armament)
Something capable of landing up to a platoon (24) troops onto enemy-held shores (ie the LCA or LCVP, preferably with some kind of defensive armament, machineguns etc)
Replacement for the Vehicle Raft/Barge (no armament)

Missing ships are all the transport boats.
Well, medium tank lander would be ‘Bolinder’ type self-prop barge… a whole of 2 were used once (USSR didn’t do many assault-type tank landings, you know… Landing tanks into a port already captured by infantry is a whole another business).
Infantry often landed directly from small warships like 1125 and torpedo boats - although small, they are numerous and each can take a dozen or so infantry to the shore. I’ll try to find something specialized though, the fact it wasn’t built doesn’t mean it wasn’t designed :slight_smile:
Unarmed Vehicle Raft - N2P pontoon. I will place it in svn later today.

USSR recieved 15 LCT(6) from what I have seen. It’s not a great deal, but it’s more than 2. Also recieved 30 LCI(L)'s. ‘Home grown’ alternatives are always preferable, but LL can’t be dismissed. :wink:


Suggests 54 LCM(3) too.

Read this (it’s translated into English) for an example of the largest Soviet amphibious assault that included tanks. ‘Home grown’ landing equipment just wasn’t sufficient for anything short of serving as practice targets…
Outcome of that attempt:

(if the article somehow comes in Russian for you, look for Russian/English switch - there is one on that page)

Indeed. That was in early 1943 yes? It may also fit better in our timescale to have the LL equipment that came in late 44/early 45 anyway as those russian ‘Bollinders’ and such were probably lost or beyond use by that point. :frowning: As well as the comparitive effectiveness of the types.

Yes, that was in early 1943. An example of operation that failed just because no one though ‘shit happens’ when they planned it (and haven’t though about backups, like a second set of radio equipment in case first one gets destroyed). Bolinders, FYI, are the very same landing boats used during WW1 Dardanelles landing, only modified slightly to accept heavier stuff (there were no tanks back then), so guess what their technical state was like…
Maybe that failure was the reason RKKA didn’t attempt any such operations after that - all landings done after (and there were quite a few in 1944-1945) were done with infantry and small warships only, no tanks.
Rivers were another matter though, prebuilt and makeshift tank rafts were common.

To me the neat solution is for the US to have LCT(6) with USSR having it lend lease. Brits used LCT(5) lend lease, but the US used more 6 than 5, and brits had the home built LCT(4).

p.s. yuri, will you check the release goals thread and give your opinion on the SU-85/SU-100 debate :slight_smile:

What the shipyard building should look like? AFAIK we currently have nothing of the sort, so boats have nowhere to be built. And, yet again, which of the builders should be able to enter water in order to construct the shipyard?

Well, perhaps the easiest way would be a Naval Engineer who is able to forde rather deep. Built from the barracks, after the Level 2 Engineer. We can have one shipyard that “morphs” into the larger one, perhaps, to save buildtree confusion, since nothing else can go in water… and engineer boat is iffy…

If we can’t find a solution to USSR’s transport problems, we’re not forced to. The USSR can simply get the short end of the stick when it comes to armed assault ships. I’m sure there’s plenty of examples of patchwork barges and pontoons that were used. The USSR will simply have to include warships with landing forces to get the effect of defensive armament.

I was wondering if we could use the yardmap to force part of the shipyard to be on land.

I woldn’t do the morphing shipyard for one reason: minWaterDepth. There is a world of difference between that value for say a river craft like a 1125 and a sea-going large vessel like the destroyer. If the yard is made so that it can build destroyers (and so it has adequate minWaterDepth itself), it couldn’t be built in the rivers (where naval support could be wanted, too. AFP’s and River Monitors aren’t the weakest of units). And if it’s not given enough minWaterDepth, then people will morph it into a ‘heavy yard’ and find out way too late that large ships cannot leave it… It’s not always easy to determine if a place can allow large ships to pass or not before you have any, and by that time it may be too late.
In short, that means: 2 shipyard buildings. 1 for coastal craft, 1 for sea-going stuff. The first could be built most anywhere there is water, the second requires enough depth.

True. Shit, that throws a wrench in that idea…

I found a drawing of Vosper MTB in Russian service (lend-lease). Is that the same boat that is planned for the British? That is, should I model it?
Also, can someone knowledgeable in German ships go through the list at this site (Dreadnought project) and look for anything that is of interest to us? I don’t know enough about German navy to find our planned units there, but I suspect at least some of them ARE there.

I was planning on a later version with 4 torpedo tubes, but they are all pretty much the same shape (but differing lengths). I suppose i should go rooting around for some pics.