with 3 allied teams and 1 axis, you think maybe the next team should be an axis? like maybe a light weight italy support or… something
What is with this obsession with Finland?!
It seems everyone has been instantly won over to the Finnish cause – both Nemo and Flozi were even helping with it, Nemo even made a reskin of the old infantrry to Finnish uniform! Finland is probably even more limited than Italy in terms of new stuff, Finland’s armed forces mainly used equipment bought from Germany or captured from Russia. Atleast Italy had some of their own stuff…
Anyway, I actually kind of agree. It’s 3v1, those poor krauts
? I didn’t do anything for Finns
Finland is a ‘minor’ power, Japan or Italy (in that order) would be much more suited for inclusion. Too bad both of those had pathetic ground armored forces, their tanks had neither quality nor quantity.
I’d be more for Italy and Finland, atleast each of those can be bolstered with German-made equipment (I think it’d be interesting to give Italy older German armoured vehicles, such as 37mm-armed Panzer III’s, and short-barrelled Panzer IV’s and StuGs, as well as Stuka dive-bombers, etc), though it’d still be an uphill battle to balance them to anything reasonably able to hold their own against the other factions. Japan would be a waste of time, as they could only ever be effective on maps with large amounts of water, which would give them a tactical edge with their high numbers of amphibious vehicles. Still, even with all of that, a single M4 Sherman would practically be a fortress against the Japanese.
I started writing up an Italian unit list but didn’t get past infantry before I realized how much of a bloody mess they are.
I could win world war 2 in 1944 with italy.
Yeah, Italy with Axis in 1944 would be pwnage.
Well, let it be RSI and not Italy then. Is this Axis enough?
Well Japan would be at first glance but the top candidate, but theres number of factors, the largest being that there a entire ocean away, they too are fighting 3 enemies (British Empire, US Forces, and Russian Border wars) and they have very few resources, and they have no heavy tank what so ever, Type 4 Chi-To was the closest thing they had, only 2 operational ones were made by 1945, it was suposed to be made in quanties of 25 a month during 1944, but material shortages and the bombing of japan hampered this, so if you wanted Japan in the game, it would be something like this:
Cheap Cheap Infantry
Weak overpriced tanks
Ones which are strong are bending history and you could make 28 Tiger Tanks for the same cost.
Maybe Allow some strong defenses just to make up for something!
Some pretty dam good fighters.
The Italians had switched sides during 1943, however the Nazi Puppet state: Italian Social Republic, was fighting till 25 April 1945, so you could do Italy, but it wouldnt be that strong, they too had very few tanks of their own,
Below average Infantry,
Shares A large amount of German Equipment
With a small inventory of light Italian Tanks
Finland fought with almost exclusively German tanks, and some Russian Captured ones, although did have quite a bit of Soviet Infantry weapon inventory, They made there varient of the Mosin-Nagant, which was overall better, the only common feature was the reicever, bolt and magazine, although the M1891 and m/24 were entirely different, all were capable of giving the accuracy demanded by most finnish troops, more notably they made a very rugged and reliable, and pretty dam good SMG, Konepistooli kp/31, orginally using a 20 round box mag and a 40 round drum, it was updated in 1937 to 70 rounds, it was produced in quite large numbers, by June 1944, there 60,000, during the Continuation war (the war they would be in if we include them) they produced a two-column 50-round stick magazine, and in 1942-43, they added a muzzle brake, allagedly nicknamed ‘White Death’ by soviet troops, and it also introduced soviet production policy, before the winter war, SMG production was limited, but by the end of WW2, they were the largest producer of SMGs with over 3 million, If you request more Info on Finnish armaments and finnish WW2 in general just ask.
Very good infantry, with good snipers, and SMG troops
Mainly German Tanks, with quite a bit of soviet inventory
Moderately good defenses
Quite stealthy (they are often noted for quickly isolating soviet armoured and infantry divisions that moved to fast or too slow and annhillating them)
If you ask me Italy would be a poor choice, although Japan would be a more legitamate choice as it was a proper indepedant state, although Finland was independant as well, it’s war effort was quite dependant on the German Equipping the armoured divison, Air support, and AT weapons. So its a Toss up between Finland and Japan, if you want a good gameplay and still keep with the history, Finland would be the better choice.
Both Italy and Japan had strong navies. Much stronger than the rest of Axis (excluding the submarines - Germans were out of competition in that regard). Italians built quite a lot of tanks, and some of their vehicles weren’t bad (Semovente da 105, Semovente da 90 - those could knock out most any tank). Japanese could be given some very unique infantry (namely anti-tank kamikaze type soldiers), Italians had the Bersagliery, who (as no one else than Rommel admitted) were better trained than even Germans (but regular Italian soldiers were poor fighters).
As for Finnish tanks, there shouldn’t be any guessing. There are numbers which I collected long ago. As you can see, German equipment isn’t a majority here:
[code]1918-1919 +32 Renault FT
1933 +x Vickers tankette mod.1933, +1 Vickers 6-ton, +6 Swedish armored cars
1938-1939 +28 Vickers 6-ton (w/o weapons and radios)
Start of Winter War:
Renault FT (some unarmed) 34
Vickers 6-tom mk. E (most unarmed) 32
Vickers-Carden-Lloyd tankette (used up to 1941) 1
Vickers-Carden-Lloyd light tank (used up to 1943) 1
Vickers 6-ton mk. B (unique 47mm gun) 1
Landswerk-182 armored car 6
From then on, most of new Finnish tanks were captured Soviet ones. The rest were bought from Germany (including some Soviet tanks captured by Germans). Every possible attempt was made to recover any damaged tank left on the battlefield. Because of that during the fights Finnish forces actually grew stronger. Lack of massive tank battles on that front helped to preserve vehicles too.
31st of May, 1941
T-37/T-38 light amph. tank 42
T-26 light tank 34
OT-26, OT-130 light flamethrowher tank 6
T-28 medium tank 2
Vickers 6-tonner (later upgunned to T-26 standard) 27
Vickers m1933 tankette 4
Renault FT 4
BA-20 light Armored Car 3+3
BA-10 heavy AC ?+3
Swedish Landswerk AC ?
Total armored cars 22
First days of 1942
T-26 mod.1933 65
T-26 mod.1937-1939 32
T-34 at least 1
Most other tanks remained, too
StuG III +30
T-20 Komsomolets light armored artillery tractor at least 18
Middle of 1944
StuG III G 23
Landswerk self-propelled AA 6
Some more tanks in other units.
+29 new StuG (too late to take part in fighting)
+15 Pz.IV Ausf.J
+2 ISU-152 (one lost just a few days after it was captured)
KV-1 mod.1942 1
KV-1E mod.1940 1
Landswerk II SPAA 6
Pz. IV Ausf. J 15
StuG III Ausf. G 47
T-26 (different types) 75
T-26E (upgunned Vickers 6-tonner) 19
T-37, T-38 12
Also a lot of non-tank Soviet equipment, such as trucks (both 4 and 6-wheeled), artillery tractors, guns, light weapons etc. Some German AT guns (PaK-38 and PaK-40).
Panssaridivisoona was disbanded in the December of 1944 at the request of Soviet command, but the vehicles remained in the Finnish army and some served there well into the 1960s.
Judging from the ever-increasing numbers of captured vehicles, Finnish troops fought quite well.
T-26E - Vickers 6-tonner with the Soviet T-26 turret (45mm gun and DT mg). Since T-26 is the (licensed) clone of 6-tonner, conversion was quite simple.
BT-42 - hull from the BT-7 with a new turret housing 114mm British howitzer. That’s NOT a tank destroyer, in fact it proved quite poor at AT role (one of BT-42 scored 11 hits on T-34 and IS-2 without causing any visible damage to them), it’s an assault gun.
There were attempts to develop an APC based on BT hull, but it was found too unreliable. Regular BT tanks weren’t used for that same reason - low reliability and high cost of repairs.
KV-1E - KV-1 with additional armor plates bolted to the turret. Some made in the USSR before and in the first year of war.
T-28E - T-28 with additional armor plates. Most were also made in USSR, but some were probably converted from the regular T-28 during Finnish repairs.
Source for all of that: http://xrumer.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/fin/ (article in Russian that lists some Finnish books among its sources).
Possible problems with a side using such units:
T-26, T-37, T-38, T-28, BA-20 are WAY outdated. T-28E is somewhat better, it almost equals T-34 in protection and weapons. BA-10 is a heavy armored car, it has poor mobility compared to BA-64 or the Greyhound (but its 45mm gun is quite powerful). BA-20 is faster, but it only has DT 7.62 MG as a weapon and its armor is lighter than that of BA-64. T-26 is way slower than late-war light tanks, its armor is weaker too, 45mm gun is on level with others though. T-37, T-38 only have 1x7.62 MGs as weapons. T-20 is not an APC like the Sd.Kfz.251, while it can take 6 soldiers, it’s way too small.
Some advantages of those units:
T-37, T-38 are amphibious and quite fast. T-28 has 2 additional MG turrets independent from the main gun turret which make it quite a force against unarmored things. KV-1E is heavily armored (but its gun is too weak to fight Tigers and such). StuG III G are late-war tank destroyers which are able to deal with any tank (possible exceptions are monsters like IS-2 and KingTiger). BT-42 is a fast assault gun, considerably faster than SU-76 or the StuG, and its HE shell is more powerful (but much weaker against armor). Pz.IV Ausf.J is the standard German late-war medium tank, T-34s are standard Soviet tanks, and Finns have both.[/code]
let us not forget, as mentioned above, that the italian army contained the semovente 90/53 armed with a 90mm gun, that was adequit to smash even a tiger.
the italian war machine (more like a clown on a bicycle) fought in most fronts in the second world war and the soldiers carried adequite wquipment but had poor training. i think they could be introduced in the game since they are a overlooked nation, also the finns’ whiould be a fun addition.
but why has no one thought about the czechish forces?
Because the Czechs didn’t fight as an autonomous, large conventionally army at any period during the war. Romania and Hungary would be more logical than Czechoslovakia in the grand scheme of things.
Well we have most of the ‘Finnish’ (Or rather stolen then given a quick paint job, then repaired) so I may as well Say there Light arms etc.
There was a lack of Standardisation before the winter war, mainly because officer purchased there own pistols (There were Italian Berratas, Spanish Rubys, Astra 300s, Mauser 1896 Broomhandles the list goes on) but the most common was the 9mm German P08 (AKA: Luger) They ordered 8000 of these in 7.65 form in the 1920s from a German firm. They made there own semi-automic Pistol, named the L-35 (Used 9mm bullet), it was robust and well-made used like most Finnish made weapons, but production delays and budget problems kept the Luger the standard sidearm.
After the Finnished Civil war, there was a vast lack of standardisation, Japanese Asakari Rifles were in the mix as well! but with there being over 190,000 Mosin-Nagants M1891 and huge amounts of 7.62 ammo, the choice of standardisation was simple, although eventually most ended up as a source of parts for Finlands own Mosin-nagant production, during 1940-3, production on M1891 resumed, these had new stocks and sling swivels, the Finns made a number of far more accurate m/24 and m/27 rifles, but the M1891 was still the most common, the finns captured 2700 SVT-38 rifles dring the winter war, and over 15,000 in the Continuation war, most being improved SVT-40’s which became quite popular
The First SMG used by the Finnish army was the 7.65mm Bergmann (Desginated m/20) a german design made in Switzerland, they about 1400 at the beiging of the winter war, but the most common and far better SMG was the 9mm Konpistooli kp/31 (AKA: Suomi/White Death) developed in 1930 by Aimo Laht, it was bought by the Civil Guard (Quite a major force) to replace there Bergmanns, the Army placed orders in 1931, by June 1944 60,000 were made, during the Continuation war a new two column 50-round ‘stick’ magazine was produce, in 1942-1943 muzzle breaks were added to the SMG, Bunker and tanker models were also made with different lengths, barrel shrouds and stocks, numbers of Sovet SMGs were also captured during WW2 (4000 PPSh-41s and roughly 5000 PPS-43s)
The standard machine gun throughout 1939-45 was classic water cooled Maxim design by 1944 the Finns had over 4000 Soviet Maxims in service, including AA versions, there were an number of other Maxims, M/09-21 and M/32-32 basically a improved 1910 Maxim with Finnishe modifcations including improved tripods and feed system, m/32-33s and improved cooling, a large hole in the water jacket, allowing for quick refills of water, and snow as coolant, there limited a most of german MG08s
Light Machine Guns
There were several types, the first Finnish desgined arm was a 7.62 Lahti-Saloranta (LS-26) the first batches were complete in 1929-30, with 20-round magazines, under battle conditions in the winter war these were too well made, being manufactured to such fine standard that dirt often caused stoppages, Finish troops perferred Soviet LMGs chief being Degtyarev DPs, By the end of the winter war the Finns had captured and put into service over 3000 of them, and by 1944 9000, the tank version was also used on finnish tanks, there were over LMGs, but these were in very low quanties and were widely varried (Chatelleraut FM24/29 was just one of them) AT-weapons
The finns during the Winter war were unprared tactically and psychologically against tanks, they lacked AT weapons sorely, they fielded any piece of weapon they had that could be loosely desribed as a AT, the first true AT eapon were 37mm Swedish Bofors (desginated: 37 k/36) 48 examples had arrived by the begining of the winter war, they also concluded a Liscened-manufacture agreement for both VTT and Tampella, Tampella had production problesm so by 1939 they only had 46 completed, despite this the 37mm m/36 was well made, the calibre was quickly becoming obsolete but the crews that employed them could move quickly enough to make for this, they had a lack of AT guns and ammo for them,.
But during the contiuation war they received 463 German Guns: 200 37mm Pak 36 and 40s, 27 50mm Pak 38, 46 75MM Pak 97/38 and 190 75mm Pak 40s By september 1944 the finns ahad captured a further 550 soviet 45mm AT guns with lots of Ammo. AT-Rifles ere in very short numbers, and thus i will no list the, alhough during the winter war 100 British Boys .55 AT rifles were donated, and somehow another 300 were obtained during the continatuon war. Panzerfaust and shchrecks were supplied as well, over 1500 Panzerfaust-kleins and 300 Schrecks were delivered in preparation for a expected soviet summer assault, very little training was done with these weapons, but fortunatly both were quite easy to use and Finnish troops usually learned quite quickly, the finns did not receive 80s or 100s versions. in all more than 25000 fausts were sent to finland in 1944, but only 400 were used in combat, the schrecks was a far better weapon in the hand of the finns and they loved it, by august 1944 the finns had 1800 of them, and 18,000 rockets for them.
The Finns artillery pieces were wide and varied, and very old, despite this they perferred stealing and capturing Soviet artillary pieces, which were captured in large numbers, most being put into service during the continatuon war, these include: 86 76mm M1936, 125 Modernised 76 h/02, and 41 122mm M9138 howitzers, Newer Artillery were introduced during 1941-44, Including 103 Finnish made 105 howitzers (105 /h37) and 53 German 105mm M1933 howitzers, received in 1944 april, sweden sold 64 Bofors 104 M1934 field guns. bigger guns in service include: 48 German 150mm M9140, and 4 210mm M1917 from sweden.
I would to note Most of this info was taken from Elite: Finland at War: 1939-1945. I’ve spotted this recently, its a varient of the kp/31, with a underslung Flamethrower! little else is known about the varient.
I think you could include Finland and Italy, because they’d be relatively easy to modify from Germany… just a bunch of new skins, sounds, and perhaps give the Finns the ability to revive/recover enemy tanks and stuff twice faster? Also; I’m Finnish myself and since I’m here now, it’d be [color=red]RACIST not to include the home country of a community minority in the game. I demand representation!
Actually the Italy is nothing like Germany, no amount of reskins will do. Nearly all of their equipment was of their own manufacture, quite unlike anything we have now. On the other hand, Finland only needs new infantry modeled (with inf weapons) - all the vehicles can just have a resking from Soviet/German ones.
Also, we have twice as many Finnish players as we do Italians and French combined.
Anyway, I think we should pursue adding Finland and Italy. Besides, Yuri has surplus modeling time, right?
Besides I already modeled like 10 Italian vehicles and 1 ship