Luettich feedback/todo


  • T-60 is nuts. - 20% cost increase, knocked down its armor quality to nearly nothing, so it takes more damage from small caliber cannons.
  • AT guys are being used in all kinds of ways that obsolete other units (ie snipers). - bumped cost back up by 10%, bumped up decloak range by about 15%.
  • Longer deploy for AA, shrink their range a bit. flak rushing out of hand. - same deploy as other guns now (35 seconds), reduced to 1 at game start.
  • Cheapen radar so its a viable threat sooner in the game. - done, now costs just over 5k (not all that much more than a veh yard).
  • suppression for interceptors perhaps. - done, same area as MGs. nastily effective vs groups, they usually pin them in a pass.
  • guns probably overnerfed.
  • ISU-152 needs range nerf (direct support, not howitzer). - done, brought its range down to the same as the CS cromwell or StuGIII.
  • look at tank yard costs (medium spam no longer a problem, it seems).
  • maybe do something different with starting sets of units (some deployable MGs, perhaps?) - done maybe. two trucks, two MGs, two commissars for russians, removed trucks from engineer build menus, ended commissar self-duplication. removed two AA guns.
  • more cost effective to screen things with scouts these days (bad bad bad) - removed scout squads, added 2 scouts each to mortar and MG squads.
  • perhaps cheapen barracks rifle/smg - doubled HQ squad costs. should be interesting.
  • 10% cost/bt back up for brit HQ squad. maybe cut scout and do something with it. - 10% back up, cut scout and swapped in SMG. so they’re a bit SMG heavy, but it should work out.
  • perhaps undo german inf 5% cost/bt nerf - done


  • plane sounds

I can’t seem to figure out the plane sound bug, the code seems to be correct, especially given that the errors are supposedly off the low end:

local soundNumber = 1 + floor(0.5 * (1 + vDotD) * engineSoundNr)

if soundNumber < 2 then soundNumber = 2
elseif soundNumber > engineSoundNr then soundNumber = engineSoundNr

local soundFile = SOUND_DIR .. engineSound .. soundNumber .. SOUND_EXT
PlaySoundFile(soundFile, soundVolume, ux, uy, uz)

Plus I’ve not been able to reproduce the error.

M8 Scott seems weak compared to Sherman; it has no AP shell and much weaker armor but costs the same (in fact it takes longer to build). It’s not even faster or more maneuverable than the Sherman.

PTRD damage needs some work, see the armor thread.

•AT guys are being used in all kinds of ways that obsolete other units (ie snipers).
the bazooka is a faster if more disposable solution to a problem than a sniper, and snipers dont really seem to have the range they need to compensate for their lower dps and high cost.

I think with both AT guys, flamers and partisans, they would benefit alot from a longer period of decloak before cloaking again

•Longer deploy for AA, shrink their range a bit. flak rushing out of hand.

I’m very much in favour of a large multiple of deploy time, but not for the range shrink (seems feeble already). making the starting ones immobile or planes a serious threat would prolly reduce this problem. I really like that you feel the need to use anti gun units early game instead of vanilla rifle spam

•Cheapen radar so its a viable threat sooner in the game.

4-5k instead of 8 maybe :smiley:
same for tank yard (only make upgrades costly)

•suppression for interceptors perhaps.


•guns probably overnerfed.

its mobile artillery that needs the nerf.
artillery is waay too accurate. it shouldnt be able to pinpoint gib light vehicles like it does now. hell, if the accuracy went down you could even work the costs back down a bit.

•ISU-152 needs range nerf (direct support, not howitzer).

that’ll help

•look at tank yard costs (medium spam no longer a problem, it seems).

was it EVER a problem? in my s44 memories its always been about rush to panther :stuck_out_tongue:
tankyards and tank costs in general are in need of a rethink. badly.
for example, light tanks are the best for attacking; you get lots of speed and numbers and mgs for your cost.
however, medium tanks make light tanks ineffective (once mediums are on the field everyone stops light production)
and everyone makes mediums.
mediums are good at attacking anything upto other mediums, but are cost effectively countered by AT guns and heavy tanks. the savvy player wants to roll over those mediums and AT guns and techs to heavy. however, heavy tanks are too costl, slow and expensive to use as an attack force, so what ends up happening is forcing eachother to tech up, both destroy their own ability to use light tanks capable of mounting attacks.
to put it another way, the way teching up closes your options is dumb and fail
If I had powers of mind control you would be changing it so upgrading opened options (at great cost) , and did not close options.
as it is, maybe a comprimise (basic mediums avaliable in every teir of factory?)
some kind of model change (I think I mentioned the number of trucks on the side of the model representing teir?) with upgrades would be good.
I think its important to make it clear the medium chasse does most the work, heavies are more for special roles.

what you want is a model where lights and mediums are always a good option, but the occasional heavy is a scarce and effective at killing other tanks all game if protected. right now cost to power is basicly linear; a tiget has to kill 3 mediums to get its cost back, which it does very very easily. how about making it more expodential? a heavy tank is worth alot more than 3 mediums in an anti tank context. the factor that should increase cost most is power of gun rather than armour, so churchill would stand somewhere between heavies and mediums. if you call heavy tanks 6 mediums, and super heavy tanks 2-3 heavies…
light vehicles need to cheaper in comparison to reduce the redundancy model (m8 scott costs virtually the same as sherman atm; it shouldnt really…)
air being effective should reduce the effectiveness of armour a great deal…

•maybe do something different with starting sets of units (some deployable MGs, perhaps?)

the worry with this is the more effective starting units are, the more noobs will get raped early game.
I like the idea of a basic porc toolset (2xflaks, 2xMG?) because that’ll encourage start builds to include anti porc units, not just rifle sp

•more cost effective to screen things with scouts these days (bad bad bad)

i opposed that cost nerf, scouts are what stops clever tactics ending games

•perhaps cheapen barracks rifle/smg

I think a combination of increasing their hq cost and decreasing the brax cost might be the best bet (its what, 100% vs 300%? how about 150%/250% of current instead…)

also, im begining to think that british infantry really ARE op what with the recon and the bren guy, when nobody else has them. the bren in groups of 5-6 red star pin enemy infantry and no other faction gets that kind of cheap mg spam… bearing in mind their infantry have higher range, hp AND dps than german infantry right now (german infantry have weakest dps/squad atm, which seems wrong), germany vs britain is very very difficult to win as germany simply because your units are only little cheaper yet so inferior.

also, US smgs are awful, drags the whole squad down. i know they were fail in rl but how about a little bit more range :frowning:

The PTRD is crap vs light vehicles, waay worse than bazooka etc. you dont want it to cloak so it dosnt become a mega sniper, but srsly, it fires once then stays uncloaked for like 10 secs? then it wouldnt be that snipey. you could make it not fire at soft targets like marder etc if its really a worry.

the daimer voice ack says “lorry here,”

rifles dont seem to have standardised sprayangle, mosin nargent has sprayangle=100; but the partisan version dosnt?
the garand dosnt have spray angle at all…
other infantry weapons dont have an accuracy factor (perfectly accurate?)

Regarding tanks: On paper, mediums aren’t completely bad against heavies, although in general they are at a disadvantage even there. Heavies tend to have more raw firepower and armor for their cost thanks to exponential armor and damage. Although they do suffer more from overkill wasting damage and non-AP weapons, the first shot advantage is pretty significant and non-AP weapons generally don’t do the ridiculous damage they used to when you’d have 100 howitzers pounding everything on the map.

What I think really pushes it over is the battlefield situation. Heavies have a greater chance of surviving a conflict, particularly if not enough mediums are brought to bear against them at exactly the same time. This means that the player with the heavies tends to be more able to keep their tanks, which means they end up with more tanks with more XP. To make matters worse, mediums need to be able to move into the line of the heavies in order to have a fair chance at winning via surrounding, but this is usually not feasible due to AT troops and grenades and tank accuracy decreasing on the move. Plus if the attack isn’t coordinated exactly right the heavies can just pick off the mediums as they approach before they can get a hit in. Finally, this puts the initiative with the player that has the heavies–they don’t have to do shit while the player with the mediums is forced to react, micro, and take risks just to break even.

In short, heavies have the advantage in armor and firepower for cost over mediums, which is only worsened by the battlefield situation.

My suggestion for starting units: remove 2 flak, leave 1 flak, add 1 deployed MG. Maybe also 1 sniper or 1 mortar so you can try to break enemy bases right from the start. Maybe make starting force composition a mod option (with a list of predefined setups, so on a low-res map where air is not very probable players might want no flak at all, but more inf instead).
Another way would be to give radar from the start, that way someone might actually try to do the early plane rush which the 3 flaks were supposed to counter (still that won’t be very early as CP sum required means you won’t be building barracks/gun yard while you prepare it).
As for light tanks becoming obsolete, it’s not that way for the USSR because T-60 lives in the veh yard (I know T-70 from the tank yard is supposed to be Soviet light, but I haven’t seen it built even once - if you have the tank yard, you make ISU or upgrade the yard). That needs something done, only I’m not sure what exactly.

A note on the flamer: in SVN I reduced the velocity from 240 to 180 for graphical reasons (lower velocity = less particles needed to make a convincing stream). Will this cause balance problems?

Just a few notes, after recently returning from a long break my first impressions of Luettich was the way AA has made quite a few tactics unviable.

For example.

Commando’s are instantly raped by even 1 AA gun as soon as they uncloak, and considering most bases have three AA weapons by default (unless some have been moved) so commandos can not longer made the surgical strikes that made them so great in the first place.

Also, AA is the BANE of light vehicals due to their long range and impressive firepower, tearing them apart in a matter of seconds. This combined with their 360 degree field of fire and good traverse rate makes armored cars, whos only true job is flanking, unable to fufil their primary role. This means that a howitzer + infantry can prevent an assault from the front while the AA makes getting round the sides to take down the destructive howitzers impossible. I found that 1 AA gun > 5 Daimers, making mincemeat of them as soon as they were in range.

These two factors set me on the back foot and lost me a game in quite a frustrating manner.

Naturally this is only from playing as british.

it’ll make ambushing harder because there will be a longer delay between decloak and the supression hitting
it’ll make toasting passing vehicles alot harder

I checked number of particles on flight with these new flamers, I think it’s really a bit too high. Close to 4000 particles for one flamer firing at ground, and around 11000 for 3 flamers firing at ground. (Used to be 3000 for one IIRC, which I already found high…)

Is most of the cost initialization or per-frame? Each particle only lasts 4 frames (it used to be ~30 frames each).

The numbers quoted are the particle count - total amount of particles alive at that time.

Not sure what contributes most to the cost, I’d guess initialization is similarly heavy as 2-3 frames, but that’s totally uneducated guess :slight_smile:

Ah, I see. Maybe I’ll try making the texture twice as long and using half as many.

This is my idea for starting AA guns and in fact a way around the issues with AA guns. AA cannon were most effective in fortified towers, some of which were the last holdouts of the Germans at the end of the war. These towers are more durable but due to their elevation and the limits of fire platform construction were… shall we say… unsuited for firing on non-aircraft.

We offer truck to deployed as a two directional morph. I propose from there, we offer deployed to fortified as a one directional morph, resulting in more durable AA guns which cannot fire at land. The beginning AA guns we replace with two of these, fixed fortified and elevated. We then nerf the effectiveness of the unfortified ones, so people cannot abuse built ones as effectively.

This takes out the early anti-infantry and anti-vehicle base defense we have been coddling our players with. It restores the value of the weapons of the German headquarters. It also, hopefully, separates serious anti-air out of the land balance model so we can better balance air to anti-air.

Very good but sometimes the tanks drive around the market target. (where they should move to)
Maybe someone didnt noticed it. ^^(which i cant imagine)

This is very stupid if i want to build a “tank-line” then the drive around :neutral_face:

Is no-turn-in-place getting an engine fix when it comes to stopping? Anybody know?

Will check as soon as I got development build of Spring going again.

you need to standardise deployed MG range otherwise can counter a deployed MG by deploying a longer ranged one; this is lame

german MG42 is shit, its got the worst range of the MGs and for an MG range+pinning is everything.
why does the bren outrange all the proper undeployed MGs? (AND the deployed mg42) drop that things range to 800 or less already, its totally op

also, why do the german anti tank dudes have no ability to hit moving targets while every other faction has ok movingaccuracy

you might want to revert the cheaper AT guys because those guys are uber, i just have a rax spamming them all game now

I put the flamethrower trail back up to speed–I realized that the faster it travels the fewer frames it exists and the fewer frames it emits cegtag, so emitting more particles per frame is fine. I did the longer smoke texture thing, so it should use about half as many particles as it did before. Rocket trails will probably get a similar treatment sometime.

I don’t know what you’re on about with Bren’s being longer ranged, IK. They’re 735, not 1000. You’re probably seeing the range for the tracer weapon.

I’m going to bump the brit HQ squad cost back up a bit, and roll back the cost increase I applied to all the german squads a while ago. That should level that out more or less.

Now that we have the scout plane, I’m tempted to remove scout squads entirely (just leave them with the 1 you get from the sniper). This of course more or less mandates that the british HQ squad lose their scout, I’m just not sure what to swap it with yet.

One random thought is to play with the HQ squad makeups in a big way; leave the bren and scout in british, give the germans a MG42, and give the US a bazooka. Or something. Or just make them all hardcore boring and revert to rifle/smg.

Armor…I haven’t had the time to digest the pages of mathy-looking things that Yuri and Zerg have put up, but it doesn’t appear to be happening super soon, so I won’t worry about it. Personally I don’t think the current system is totally broken, and adding a whole lot more depth would make it nigh-incomprehensible, but I don’t have any really strong opinions on a new system, as long as its not an epic balance upheaval.

As for AT guys being used against all kinds of other things: k. I may raise their cost back up slightly, but I don’t want to make it a big bump, since they’re fairly critical in the veh/inf balance. I figured I might bump up their decloak radius instead, so they’re less effective in sneaking places (that is, better at dealing with moving targets and worse at dealing with stationary ones, since moving targets are massively less likely to have infantry screening).