Is there an 88mm antiaircraft/antitank gun

I noticed that there isn’t a german 88 in the game and I’m wondering if it will be added since its probably one of the most well known weapons of all time

It would pose a balance problem, which is why it is not included. There may or should be one in Deployment, which is the gametype and branch headed by Spiked/Zvero.

I don’t think it is un balanced since the british already have a seventeen pounder, and its being compared to a pak 40 and an american three inch, and a 57mm, seriously, I don’t get why there can’t be two classes of anti tank cannons, light and heavy
light would be the 6 pounder, russian 57mm, german 50mm and american 57mm, while heavy would be pak 40, zis-3 76mm gun, 17 pounder and 3inch gun, then germans could have a super heavy gun, the 88 :slight_smile:

ZiS-3 is inferior to ZiS-2 as an anti-tank weapon, which I’m afraid goes to show the quality of your research. :stuck_out_tongue:

Sorry, I didn’t mean the zis-3, I meant the russian 85mm antiaircraft gun because while lacking in AP ability for its calibre it had good HE and its weight gave it some chance against heavier tanks, the zis-3 would be good as a General purpose gun capable of AT and HE, in fact all of the anti tank guns so far in this game were capable of firing HE except for maybe the zis-2(maybe just less effective), yet non can in game which is a great fault in spring1944, I hate to point this out but the ISU-152 for example was crummy in velocity yet could probably have greater AT power then the german guns because its weight would shake it up so bad, flip it over or rip the turrets off.

The 17-pounder actually was comparable or superior to the FlaK 36 88 mm in terms of penetration capability - 111 mm of penetration at 1,800 meters versus 83 mm of penetration at 2,000 meters. The higher muzzle velocity (884 m/s vs. 790 m/s) made up for the greater mass of the 88 mm round. The 17-pounder, 88 mm FlaK 36, US 90 mm M3 and Soviet 100 mm BS-3 were all in about the same class of AT weapon. The Russian 52-K 85 mm was more on par with the US 76 mm (actually slightly inferior punching through armor), while the 76 mm and the PaK 40 are about on par with each other. The PaK 43 (the 71-caliber gun mounted on the Jagdpanther, as opposed to the 56-caliber FlaK 36) would fit the “superheavy” AT role. The ZiS-2 is the least powerful of the current batch of AT guns, so that’s something of an imbalance.

Frankly, I would like to see the 88 in the normal game as well as deployment - the PaK 40 was far more common (~23,000 produced versus just over 1,150 88s for the Heer, most of the 88s went to the Luftwaffe), but the 88 is an infamous German weapon. Having some heavier AT guns would also make them more useful in the late game; once you’re facing Panthers, Tigers, IS-2s, or ISU-152s the current stock of AT guns is pretty useless unless you site them so the enemy tanks obligingly drive past and get capped in the tail feathers at close range. I have to hold defensive points with Tigers, Jagdpanthers, IS-2s, or SU-100s so they don’t get kited. That means I have to tie up more expensive tanks or tank destroyers for a job I could do with a cheaper towed gun.

I also don’t like the single-use AT guns we have - they did fire HE ammo in action and the main rationale for setting it that way (so they don’t waste time targeting infantry instead of going after accompanying tanks) can be handled with targeting priorities. However, that is what AT guns are there for and what the majority of the ammo would have been - IIRC it took some time to even get an acceptable HE round into production for the 17-pounder. For realism I’d like dual-use AT guns, but if the developers feel it’s best they remain as is for gameplay purposes I’ll go along.

Tank destroyers are the main reason behind AP only AT guns, purely a gameplay decision. And not one likely to change. Targeting priority issues are really not a major rationale at all, btw.

Anywho, BS-3 100mm AT gun would be a more suitable Soviet heavy gun. As for ISU-152, well… yes. And it is already quite capable of being used as such in game.

So they can’t be used as ersatz tanks or assault guns, I take it?

Yes, the ISU-152 is a dangerous tank-killer with AP or HE rounds - in fact those are about equally deadly against armor and some Soviet units only carried HE rounds (sensible as it could only carry 20 rounds).

Indeed, it is to make them substantially different in usage from tanks and assault guns, gameplay wise.

The seventeen pounder was close but lacked slightly in HE and couldn’t fight AA, Actually the right thing for a super heavy anti tank gun would be the german 128mm like on the Jagdtiger
I think that in this game the each faction should have light and medium, possibly also heavy AT guns and maybe some General Purpose guns like the german 88, russian 85 and american 90
for example soviet union would get the old 37mm as the light AT the 57 as the medium AT and the 100mm as the heavy AT, and the 85mm as the GP gun

Stop right there, you don’t know what you’re talking about :slight_smile:
37mm was obsolete even before war started and was all but replaced by 45mm (only a few batteries of 37mm remained by 1941), which itself was upgraded in 1942.
85mm AA gun was not a general-purpose gun, you’re confusing it with D-44 85mm divisional gun (which had no AA capability at all, being ZiS-3 successor). In general heavy AA guns were so large, heavy and unwieldy that using them vs ground targets was only done out of desperation. When AT needs were pressing, special versions of them were built, with AA capabilities REMOVED (including anti-air sights and some other stuff like range setters), so those could not fire at planes effectively.
And so on.

By GP in that I meant that its capable of anti tank and anti air, and HE, it was used in all of these roles by the russian, there was also a 76mm antiaircraft gun, I know the 37mm was old and obsolete, but the 45mm was mostly a light infantry field gun, not just an anti tank gun, in fact its armor penetration abillity was downright crappy and pretty hopeless against all but light tanks, even worse then the two pounder, it had HE though and what else is left then, other then some donated allied anti tank equipment or the soviets would end up with no light anti tank ability, they had 37mm anti aircraft guns I think but other then that can’t think of any light anti tank weapons. Sorry for the 37mm suggestion, I know it was historically incorrect but what other choice is there and I needed some examples for my suggestion
here could be a german list
light gun 50mm with some upgrades like the cannon grenade thing, pak40 as the medium gun, 88 of some sort as a heavy gun and a 128 as the superheavy gun, this should all be correct as the 50mm was still in service in the last days of the war
sorry again for the 37mm suggestion, that was my bad :confused:

Actually 45mm had exact same AP capability as the 37mm (1-K) it replaced (and better HE). And that was enough for a light gun (but there was a number of defective AP rounds discovered in the storage at the start if war, NKVD made sure this kind of sabotage ended quickly however, but “useless gun” reputation persisted).
Light infantry field gun would be regimental 76.2mm gun mod. 1927 (and later mod.43), that one had much worse anti-tank capability, but better HE and indirect fire. Mod.43 was based on 45mm gun carriage so it could be mistaken for one.
76.2mm AA gun (designated 3-K) was less-used than 85mm, being older design (not exactly obsolete, but 85 was just better). And it too had excellent anti-armor capabilities, just it was far less common (and so is not that well known).
And heavier AT guns aren’t really needed. Play some multi-player battles, 2v2 or more players. You’ll see that it ALREADY turns into defensive lines war, even with the ‘weak’ guns we have now (supported by mobile anti-armor units). I personally don’t want even MORE defensive gameplay.

Tone aside, we do welcome your input, we’re all just hobbyists with some sort of military history interest or background. We can be a little harsh, but we don’t mean to discourage.

I know, and I don’t really mind it just seemed odd to me that the most famous AT gun of the war wasn’t included

You and me both brotha.