Infantry upgrades

This is to make the barracks be more like other yards - to have upgrade options like all the others.

So far I’ve implemented Soviet Guards upgrade (gives an additional bararcks squad with stats more-or-less similar to German rifle squad, is in svn, but disabled. Intended for medium-to-late game when sheer numbers just don’t cut it).

I also plan to make at least one German upgrade - Volkssturm. That will be like a ‘reversed’ upgrade - resulting squad will be less powerful than normal Rifle, but much less expensive as well (and much more dangerous to vehicles than a Rifle squad). So far the idea is like so: copy Soviet Partisan stats, make them cloaked only when stationary, replace Molotov with single-use panzerfaust (uses ammo, needs resupplying after each shot). Needs a model with both faust and rifle (and probably in civilian clothing as well). Also needs some symbol that is assotiated with Volkssturm (for use on buildpics), AND is not banned like the swastika for ex.

I don’t have much ideas for other nations. Britain - ANZAC? (how will those be different from normal British inf?) US - ??? (no ideas at all so far).

mhmm good idea… i am not really sure but there wasnt any symbols of the volkssturm… it was just the propaganda name used to motivate the people… they simply used wehrmacht uniforms… (and were well equipped soldiers/people but they dont had much combat expierience) maybe we simply could make a “elite squad” (3-4 soldiers) equiped with granades and STG-44 just a hand full soldiers with high combat expierience and good weapons but less numbers…

OFF TOPIC

by the way i noticed the longer range of the nebelwerfer41… thats AWESOME =)

I currently have internet problems i cant go online just with my notebook… and i dont have anything really installed here… just my browser ^^ and this happends during my vacation :frowning:((((((

Yuri, to be honest, I don’t think barracks need an upgrade option. Right now the other upgrades give access to units with substantially different roles - they are never just “better” units (as it sounds “guard troops” would be - the volkstrum - eh. economic differences aren’t really enough to justify a role, imo). I think infantry are pretty well rounded out right now, and I’m having enough trouble balancing the game with the set we have, let alone with infantry upgrades added in.

Well, we know that one of the leading ideas to differentiate Italy was to have grades of infantry and barracks, to reflect the varying levels of training, equipment and leadership shown by the Italian war effort. I thought this sort of thing was going to be side specific. I could see one elite squad per side, but I don’t see a need for them… and certainly I wouldn’t want the upgrade to replace the original.

I’m afraid I must tend to agree.

You are all boring bores who have had all the sense of wonderment and fun sapped from their emotionless souls.

It’s not that they are just plain ‘better’, infact cost-for-cost the ‘basic’ troops should be stronger (in DPS department at least). It’s more like normal Soviet inf has little chance vs say British rifles if there are more than 3-4 squads of them in one group and they have some exp, no matter how many Soviet squads you throw at them. Guards can help in this situation, having twice the HP of normal inf and all other stats similar.

(I’ve got lots of flak on Russian forums when I first announced S44 there - “yet another Soviet-hordes-vs-heroic-Western-superhumans drown-them-in-corpses propaganda-inspired game” was the reaction to the bit about Soviet inf having the least HP in game. That was just btw).

Volkssturm would be very different - not sure about Western front, but they were a real pain in the rear for Soviet army. Panzerfaust-equipped fanatic teenagers attacking tanks, especially in cities, were too well-known and described in many sources. And we have nothing like those (regular AT inf just don’t come close in numbers). So I want to make a squad where each member has a faust (one-shot until resupplied, probably inaccurate so of little use vs targets smaller than a tank) and can ambush (cloaked when stationary), but cannot sneak close to actively attack a force in the field (reducing it more to defencive roles).

Now, to clarify…

Yuri: Yes
Nemo: No
FLOZi: No
Spiked: Yes
Neddie: Indecisive

Special squads which fill other roles enabled through upgrades don’t sound as bad as upgraded squads, and I think there could be room for more squad roles… Yuri is very persuasive, and the idea isn’t bad…

LOL@“yet another Soviet-hordes-vs-heroic-Western-superhumans drown-them-in-corpses propaganda-inspired game”

That made me giggle. Never noticed that til now.

Anyway, I think a lot of the team’s collective design decisions have focused too much on the “quantitative” rather than “qualitative” aspects of gameplay (or perhaps vice versa); game features (potential and existing) are looked at for how much they affect and interact with other aspects of the game almost solely (how does unit A affect unit B’s existence? How does the Gun Yard affect the Vehicle Yard? How does the P-51 ground attack aircraft affect the Stuka?)

In this regard and the regard of our abortive attempt for automatic experience-based unit upgrades of months yore, an immediate question is always asked: What does this feature add and how does it affect other features?

However I am of the school of gaming thought that pertains to cheap thrills and subtle attention-attracting gimmicks that do not really add any new element of gameplay rather than simply add “bulk”. Again I point back to one of my most recent of favorite RTS games: C&C3, and the way it introduced unit upgrades. In short, you could buy enhancements for unit types, either through that unit’s factory or through special ugprade center buildings.

What did this add? Nothing really, except for “fluff”; it was a gameplay additive for the sake of the addition and nothing more, a completely unecessary and simplistic gameplay feature that I actually appreciated. I can’t even explain why I liked it; its not like these additions were ultra-cool in any one way, yet i couldn’t help but always go out of my way to get them out of some basic animal instinct to be as badass as possible with as much bling and extrenuous gubbins that I could get my hands on.

Now that this has turned into some intelligable tyrade I’ll end with I think the addition of “gimmicky” gameplay features for the same of gimmickery should be explored, because it does have its merits in terms of drawing player appeal.

I think that sort of thing has a place in a singleplayer game, but not in a competitive multiplayer one.

Bling is universal to all gameplay types. Name any multiplayer game you’ve played in the last year or two and it probably has “upgrade gimmicks” of some sort. Total War, Team Fortress 2, Battlefield 2, Counter-Strike, etc. The best part is that for people that like that kind of stuff, it’s there and it makes the game better. For people who don’t give a shit, they just don’t do it, and they’re not penalized for it if their opponent does.

And I’d argue that in those games such an upgrade mechanic takes three forms. 1) its irrelevant in high level play, since everyone has all of the ‘upgrades’ (BF2, TF2). 2) its a central aspect of the design, not tacked on (CS), or 3) only occurs notably in singleplayer (total war - experience upgrades only really matter in multiplayer if you buy them, and it doesn’t unlock new abilities).

I argue that in the first category, it only serves to gives nubs something cool to strive for over time - a mechanic best suited to a singleplayer experience. S44 is already well past the point when designing the game around upgrades is a viable option. In the third…well, same thing as I said last post - they make most sense in a singleplayer setting, as units get better over time from mission to mission.

I don’t see any arguement, other than BF2/TF2 upgrades being “irrelevent” (that is sort of the point) because everyone has them (which isn’t true); their irrelevancy doesn’t seem to change the fact that they are used by people who enjoy using them and not used by people who don’t.

As for TW upgrades, yes, they are only relevent if you buy them (???), which, again, people do.

I don’t really see any arguement against their inclusion in the form of what possible negative reaction they could have on gameplay, development, enjoyment, etc.

Obviously they’re not needed.

  1. They’re a development timesink
  2. They distract the player
  3. They either offer little benefit or too much benefit, excluding or forcing use
    3a. The former case makes the time investment development side entirely valueless
    3b. The latter case makes us rebalance the whole game around upgrades

I was thinking about entirely cosmetic upgrades, or hell, cosmetic variation between units as standard behaviour. Better use of our time, and damn fun.

I remain mixed on the point. I worked on a few upgrade schemes for one side of the other project I’m involved in at present, and am both interested in and sick of the mechanic.

Weve got yuri more than willing to put the time into it.

Thats kinda the point. though you seem to think distraction = bad, whereas I see more things for players to enjoy.

Given that this has to my knowledge only been an idea I dont see how you can already definitively say that it will either be overpowered or underpowered.

we seem to be taking about almost the same thing. cosmetic upgrades which affect absolutely nothing (and would seem to fall under 3a) are not much different than useful upgrades.