Arty still overpowered, here are example games.

and Nebels are bullshit irritating, actually, i have 2 games where arty are used imo overly effectively.

the first game should be a 4v4 with me and 3 newer players, against spiked and godde with 2 newer players…
was close till you know overwhelming arty :slight_smile:

next one was… a 2v2 me with a noob, and godde with a noob.

Godde chose to do artillery and i chose to do more vehicles I guess, artillery really turned it.

both decent games :slight_smile:

I’ve also played plenty of games where I defeated artillery without artillery of my own (actually I very rarely use it), opting instead for counter-artillery (SP/heavy assault guns), which is why I think all sides should get more of those types of tools…

I feel like part of the reason that towed guns are so powerful is that their ranges are pretty large compared to the size of maps. Thus, you can stick them in the back of your base and they’ll still cover most of the map. Compounding this problem is that there’s not much incentive to put towed guns in forward positions (unless you can reach the enemy’s base with them, in which case they are really fucked). Putting your guns forward makes them easier to flank, and because the distance to the enemy is smaller, so is their field of fire at that range. It’s not like you absolutely need to protect the flags from enemy fire either (as is the case with games with player-owned metal extractors); often it’s enough just to have artillery coverage over the flags (thus preventing enemy infantry from capturing the flag without coming under fire) as opposed to having to eliminate enemies that could fire at the flag location. Besides, if you can shoot at their artillery, there’s a good chance they’ll be able to shoot right back.

Given that it’s a generally a long distance under fire to towed guns, and that their coverage is often fairly good, it’s hard to find a good point of entry and gather enough of a breakthrough force to overcome the cost-efficiency of towed guns.

well here, if you want an actual, game where artillery really just made it the hugest fucking porc fest on earth, i have examples of those as well.

artillery is difficult to… break through and kill because not only do you have enemy artillery cutting down your troops, you also have to deal with their army, its a force multiplier, but in this case its multiplying the enemy’s forces still by too much.

here she be, its like 3.4 mb unzipped game took i believe over an hour really.

and in that hour it was quite bitter.

by quite bitter I mean, You couldnt break the enemy without a push of like 12 panthers.
artillery would nail all around my panthers while i was running them around map and i believe i lost a few,

good luck to being innacurate.

anyways yea.

was thinking about it a bit. came up with several conclusions and solution options:

  • increasing build cost doesn’t make much difference, no matter how expensive arty will be, it’ll still be built due to it’s superior range and ability to stop any number of infantry (the more players in the game, the more cost-effective arty is)
  • therefore number of available guns must be limited in some other way
  • also probably infantry shouldn’t get pinned down so easily when under fire (decrease fear aoe?)
  • limiting arty could be done in several ways:
  • starcraft-like supplies. e.g. one rifleman costs 0.1 supplies, one arty piece costs 5 or even 10 - out of total 200 points
  • arty has a constant command cost (say -5/s) - so having more pieces has a big impact on producing everything else
  • range is probably too large
  • you can’t retreat infantry if they’re suppressed/pinned - you should be able to make them stand up and run (faster than they run when issued a move command) towards hq… well, russians shouldn’t have this option due to nkwd guys ;p

I think the situation will be much better when the new vehicle movement is back in as it will make flanking artillery much easier.

R/P/S I know. :unamused:

I’m thinking a drastic cut for their firing arc. Right now there isn’t much of a choice between firing coverage and firepower - you can stick 5-6 howitzers next to each other, and they’ll cover a very broad section of the map while still providing a lot of overlapping firepower. Right now they cover a 90 degree swath - an entire cardinal direction. I think something closer to a 30-45 degree swath would be much more appropriate.

With a big firing arc cut, you’ll get either devastating firepower (all of them aimed in the same direction) but only on a small chunk of the map, or broad coverage (spaced out) but only a gun or two in each direction. This means that they’ll be rather more vulnerable to flanking movements, or require a far larger investment (in both logistics and command) to get the kind of all-dominating firepower that goes on now. The one big downside to this is the increased micro in setting them up, but it seems a fair exchange to me (and we can lower their turnrate/work on a ‘turn to direction’ widget to solve that).

Also, in theory fear shields on tanks should be alleviating the pinning nastiness a bit, but if it’s not enough, it’s easy to reduce the amount of fear that guns deal.

I’d rather like to avoid dropping their range or trying to price them into being balanced; as people have pointed out, the price would have to be fairly extreme (amounting to an expensive, drawn out ‘win-button’) and their range is what makes them a unique tool.

limiting firearcs could work, but you desperately need turn-towards widget/gadget for it to not be a pain in the ass.

I’m not sure they need drastic changes with air coming into play. Tabula is the cause of the Tabula Arty issues, we could do that with vehicles or tanks on those hills too.

I would explore a 60 degree firearc, but below that, with the time to setup and position, it just won’t be kosher. Between a reduction like that and air, however, I believe the problem will be resolved for the most part.

till air is properly balanced with counters, im not so sure.

play SVN games with me friday or whatever neddie :slight_smile:

air is ridiculously awesome for the cost right now, flak is great for the cost right now as well. so you lay flak all over your base and hope for the best when the fighters come in, the flak is very cost effective against air, so no idea, the whole issue is actually getting flak up and layed around your base.

Presumably the flak that gets spawned helps to deter instant air rushes against the base?

yea… but still the 3 starting flak guns wont stop 2 attack bombers. or whatever.

they will shoot down 1 before it fires maybe. the other will fire, and come in for a second run before it dies. Not that this is a huge issue really. since the attack bombers cost 5000 metal.

i think it takes like 15 flaks for germany to actually kill a 2 plane attack before it can land a horrible blow to your infrastructure or run through your flak defenses to get to your soft gooey core of naugget.

also thats not counting if you have enemy that sends in like 4 scout planes with his attack bombers, so the scout planes may take dmg first while the attack bombers do there thing.

Scout planes are going to become rather softer skinned soon, and I can try to make flaks more reliable. Tomorrow night maybe.

The remaining accuracy boosts that could be made are predictBoost 0.75 -> 1 and of course accuracy/sprayangle. ImpactOnly may help damage be more consistent as well.

Have a look at my AA changes.

I fixed some of the fire arcs and slightly increased those of Stationary Howitzers.