arty changes sux

I recently played a terribly ennoying game.

The ennemy just rushed arty and attacked my base. His arty was so precise that he destroyed all my supply and half of my barracks, I could not even see where his arty was (the " ! " has disappeared).

I dispersed my base in the map as a result, But the game was blocked : I won all the close combat but his arty continued to destroy my buildings.

I hope this change in arty is not definitive. Arty is right now used as a sneaky, precise and powerful base killer.

Every body know that artillery was not used to aim productions zones (which were unreachable except for bombers). If the gameplay has to be: “just make arty and attack enemy base the faster possible to win” then I will set up some unit restrictions to forbid arty when I am server.

I know that people like zCram want arty like that, but arty is slowly becoming a warranty that you win. Particularly if you get it first.

in my opinion arty should be: extremely inaccurate(even with XP), easy to locate, inefficient vs buildings (supply included) to reflect that they were unreachable. It should be only used against soldiers and vehicles efficiently.

If you want to make artillery good against vehicles and infantry I guess it needs accuracy then since these targets are fast and small.

Replays please.

You wont see every thing in that replay. I needed the " ! " terribly to locate artillry, I am not sure you will see that. I could have hit it with the IS2 or fighter-bombers (but I lost two upgraded tankyard due to arty)

In fact, no. Inf and vehicles tend to be in pack, all you need is to aim the pack and hit randomly the enemy. And this should be efficient only if you have a critical number of arty.

Traditionally artillery has had two effects on opposing forces. One, the obvious one, is the destruction of assets. The other effect is more subtle, it demoralizes the side on the receiving end. Translated into game terms, the second effect should manifest itself in the form of ragequits and forum claims that arty is OP, kinda like this one. So in a way this thread confirms that arty is perfect just the way it is. :stuck_out_tongue:

Joking aside, I can’t agree or disagree with PPsh’s concerns since I haven’t used massed arty in many online games. What I can say is that maintaining a decent artillery bombardment going is pricey. You have to pay for the guns themselves and a lot of storage. Perhaps it is warranted that arty pwns as much as it appears to do from a cost/benefit standpoint.

I am not sure but I think JAL used a ressource bonus because I had 2/3 of the map but he still had the same number of command, if not more.

Totbuae, I dont care to see my soldiers dying from arty, But I dont want to see my base disappearing from arty.
I controlled 2/3 of the map most of the game !! but He porced some defense I could not advance. He just used arty to destroy my base, all his others actions were ineffective.

Current arty encourage porcing, sniping enemy base, discourage armored and infantry fights.

Artillery is not very effective against enemy forces (particularly vehicles) at the moment as it shoots really inaccurately and don’t make much damage to tanks. I like that change that there is no more those “!” marks, you can still locate artillery with some work and it’s not so easy anymore to counter them. It still is inaccurate enough to not kill everything and it costs a lot of logistics.

Artillery also needs good recon to succeed anywhere (Like JAL had in that replay) and if artillery didn’t shoot factory areas IRL, I don’t think that normally tanks were either on range to shoot behind to the front line enemy’s heavy artillery.

Well, just to say that I like how it is atm.

Buildings do not move, so you just need to locate where they are one time and use artillry on it.

IS 2 in top of the hill could have hit his arty. the " ! " is critical, because I dont have time to search myself where it had shooted. I have generaly other things to do.

The problem in that game is that he destroyed all my supply before I could make myself artillry (to counter him with the same tactic…). I was very short in supply all the game, and maintained my position only due to inf spam.

if you watch well, after he destroyed my supply his arty got experience and became very accurate. I lost most my factories due to arty after. Buildings should be immune to artilry.

I personaly dont want to play a game where the only effective tactic is porc. The question for me is : should artillry be a base killer or not ?

I just saw the replay and my perception is that JAL played very well. I saw adaptable play by JAL in contrast to very rigid play by PPsh. I don’t think it was just the artillery that won the game. Also, I find it comforting that infantry spam doesn’t automatically mean game over.

P.S. The funny thing is that, judging from the replay, JAL could justifiably start a thread complaining that snipers are OP considering PPsh’s snipers hurt JAL a lot more than JAL’s howitzers hurt PPsh, at least in my humble opinion.

I had no supply, I originaly wanted to make lot of IS2. Inf spam was my only chance of survival without supply. And without factories for a long time. It was nearly a miracle I survived so long (and could have survived longer without ragequit)

with the destruction of my supply I could not make any real harm to the ennemy. It should appear obvious that the first who can fire many arty shoots severly ruin the enemy base and the game. Arty as a base killer automatically means game over (or nearly, not in case where the player cant defend it)

I know as russia u have a disadvantage on Kiev because their arty has less range . drill_ defeated me with german arty , but he didnt scout it killed just my advance(infantry mainly).
But he played really good , i wasnt able 2 scout much. Kiev is a porc map.
On Nuclear winter u cant shot from your base to enemys base its 2 far and there r hills.

that kind of gameplay is absolutly ridiculous. It seems that the only way to counter is to do the same thing and at the same time (to avoid being ruined in first).

Recent changes encourage particulary this arty tactic. (the loss of the " ! " …) But the cost of arty and its ammo consumption should be a lot higher too.

Maybe scout planes can give the “!” (shoting arty) back, it would be realistic they could spot them from far.
Anyway the best tactic vs mass arty (arty maniac),katy and nebel (tech2rockets maniac) is 2 kill their supplies, if he is smart he build some AA and u can do it only with sniping arty.

The arty change came to be because, among other things, with the earlier system you couldn’t counter artillery with artillery, which was the most common historical counter for artillery.

Thats the point, with the " ! " your arty could automatically reply to enemy arty. Without you care about it. Now this is broken, arty tend to be unpunished.

The other problem is the use of arty as a base killer. with XP arty can destroy fast your buildings accurately (and even without XP). The first who got mass supply and arty tend to inflict serious damages (that are unrepairable, and game over)

The risk is that you will finish as BA, where people tech and porc to get fusion … (to get mass arty for s44…). And people will lose or win without a single fight. Only arty will rule.

In JAL replay vs Drill (who is a zCram’s smurf), you see that drill just spam light vehicles, inf and AT guns in front and place tons of arty in rear. Drill has no other tactic than slowly advancing his line of AT guns and bombing enemy line with arty. He does no complex tactic, nothing ambitious, just advancing lines of towed guns. (only some konigtigers at end to conclude)

Maybe sniping with arty is 2 easy at the moment, i remember using 1x gbr arty 2 pwn enemys base, my realistic resolution is if u do blind shot (forced shot) without LoS arty should hit almost random, to the realistic part: The gunner doesnt know were the 1st shot get without LoS so he cant improve his aiming.

I have to agree with PPSh that that was the entire point of the “!” system. AFAIK Nemo removed it so you had to micro your artillery yourself to direct counter-battery, if you are lucky enough to spot the muzzle effects. :stuck_out_tongue:

floz - but the practical effect of the ! system was that whoever first built arty then acquired an effective monopoly on arty power for the rest of the game, as they had more guns deployed and thus had higher volume of counter-battery fire than the (usually lone) gun that a shelled player sets up to shoot back. This way at least the shelled player can set up a gun and not have it immediately be blown into oblivion by massed instant return fire.

I will look into making howitzers less cost effective at shelling bases, but this game does not suggest a change in the lack of arty notification to me.

JAL: interesting idea. I like that. It rewards players who take the micro time to get long-term LoS, and would let a player who needs to counter artillery do so effectively without needing the same number of guns. Spring.IsPosInLos and so on.

In my opinion, towed artillery is too strong against buildings. At least you can relatively easily destroy enemy’s storages/barracks on the other end of the map with only 2-4 guns whereas even 10-20 guns can’t do much damage to infantry (and almost useless against vehicles/tanks)…at least they cost too much command points/logistics for that (little) damage/support they do. So at the moment towed artillery’s main use is bombing buildings (blind, most often).
However that’s not the case for rocket artillery, which is good against everything. (…at least it was 2 months ago, didn’t play for awhile…)
That doesn’t mean, that I suggest to make artillery more deadly against infantry/vehicles . I think it’s better make it less strong against buildings, and maybe less logistics demanding (but only towed guns; rocket artillery should be expensive in use as it is). Jal’s suggestion seems to be good for this.
But I’m not really experienced in Spring 1944, so I surely might be wrong.
(in advnce, sorry for my bad english…)

I’m confused by the latest round of artillery changes (svn rev 2384). Howitzers are more expensive, their firing arcs are narrower and their shots cost a lot more logistics. The two latter changes really encourage me to use howitzers only against base facilities. I thought the idea was to discourage this use.